Over the past several months, the Church of Wells in Wells, Texas has received national media attention, most recently by the ABC show Nightline Prime with Dan Harris, which aired on 4/5/14.
Background
Concern about the group first rose to prominence when the church allowed a baby to die in the summer of 2012 rather than seeking medical attention for her. They then prayed over her dead body for 14 hours in the hopes that God would raise her from the dead. The church also practices shunning of family members who disagree with the group’s teachings.
Andy and Patty Grove, via ABC Nightline Prime
The Nightline Prime episode focused mainly on the Grove family. Patty and Andy Grove claim that their daughter, Catherine, was brainwashed by the group and has been kept from leaving. When a crew from ABC tried to interview Church of Wells members last month, group members refused comment or quoted King James Bible verses at reporters.
On Saturday, 4/5/14, two members of the Church of Wells were injured in a fight after they upset parents at the Wells Homecoming Parade by preaching hellfire and judgment against passersby, including small children.
It is my policy on this blog to refrain from mentioning specific groups unless they have already garnered media attention. Since reporters and public officials refuse to call the Church of Wells a cult in order to avoid libel lawsuits, I will also refrain from doing so.
Behavior Exposes Belief
While this group is in some ways unique, I think there is something we can learn from it which applies more universally to many other unhealthy groups: the practice of a church betrays its doctrines. Put another way, how a group behaves exposes what it believes. Behavior doesn’t lie. Thus, by allowing a baby to die without medical help, and by harshly shunning even professing Christians, the Church of Wells has behaved quite badly. This tells us that there is something wrong with the doctrine behind the behavior.
Oddly, if you talk to the elders of the Church of Wells they insist that their behavior is kind and loving. They say they are practicing true Christian faith, follow the Bible literally, and that they are acting in love toward family and community members.
Church of Wells elder Sean Morris, via Church of Wells website
They also believe that they are doctrinally pure. Church of Wells elder Sean Morris has repeatedly said that he believes that salvation is by grace through faith — he said this to me in private Facebook messages in the summer of 2012, and he has maintained this whenever accused of teaching a works-based salvation. If his claims are true, this would put him in agreement with the major creeds of the church and with the majority of professing believers around the world.
And yet a question presents itself: Why, if the members of the Church of Wells follow correct biblical doctrine, do they cause so much damage in every relationship in which they find themselves?
It is because the members of the Church of Wells behave as if they do not believe that salvation is by grace through faith. Instead, members are told that they must work hard in order to get saved, and that even upon salvation they are always in danger of falling from grace. Outsiders who do not live as ascetically as Church of Wells members do are considered to be sub-biblical or unsaved. This then allows church members to treat these people as sub-human contaminants to their own hard-won salvation. Church elders quote extensively from scriptures which talk about faith evidenced by works (James 2) and the necessity of Christian obedience. Yet many other churches teach these same principles without the corresponding harshness demonstrated by the Church of Wells.
A False Gospel Buried in 718 Pages
While most observers understand that there is something “off” with this group, it can be hard to pin down exactly what it is, beyond a simple lack of balance. This is made more difficult when Church of Wells elders refuse to answer phone calls, emails, Facebook messages, or in-person requests for interviews or clarification of their doctrine.
“The Condescension of God” by Sean Morris
Fortunately, the group’s doctrine is clear based on their extensive writings posted to their website and now available in book format from Amazon.com. In “The Condescension of God,” Sean Morris teaches a false gospel, but I suspect few will make it through the 718 dense pages to discover it.
There are plenty of extensive scripture quotations in the book, but scripture can be used for any purpose and to buttress any argument, no matter how twisted. So as I read through the book, I looked for interpretive statements by Morris which would clarify his position on what saves a person. In the end, it became obvious that this book teaches a false gospel of works-righteousness and confuses sanctification with justification.
Here is a quote from chapter 19 which neatly summarizes Morris’s view of salvation:
“The Church, upon regeneration, is initially saved, and to be initially saved, then you have undergone the gospel experience called ‘imputed righteousness’. If you have imputed righteousness, then, lawfully speaking, you have the righteousness of Christ covering you. Therefore at this point, you are savingly in perfection/completion; you are savingly, perfectly, and completely joined to Christ! If a man has imputed righteousness, but then fails to maintain his saving faith, this is a failure to maintain unity with the life of the righteous Christ which indwells him; therefore he will not produce Christ’s works righteousness (called ‘My works’ [Rev. 2:26]). If a man does not have works righteousness, then he has dead faith, and if it is not revived or made alive again, then he too will be judged dead, without God, Christ, and imputed righteousness – thus he has fallen from perfection into blame. If a man falls from a saving relationship with Christ, which is by saving faith apart from works, and then those inward, immediate, and empowering qualities of the gospel are not walked out, which means that the powers of initial salvation are not presently and progressively experienced by the individual, then there is no present progressive works righteousness. If a man falls from works righteousness and yet pleads for salvation because he once had imputed righteousness, he is arguing for mercy because he once believed the gospel which he no longer believes at present. Scripture overwhelmingly declares that such a man will not be saved except by the restoration of faith and repentance.” [emphasis added]
The New Testament knows nothing of this two-step process of salvation, with the first step depending on Jesus and the second step depending on human effort. Ladies and gentlemen, salvation depends entirely on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
If salvation really is a two step process, as Morris claims, where Christ’s work is the first step and our work is the second step, then we are all doomed. This is an inaccurate understanding of the scriptural text, which Morris arrives at by jettisoning accepted church teachings and instead creating his own categories and paradigms. This is what happens when someone rejects the clarity and simplicity of the gospel in order to create a 718-page contortion to explain why everyone else in the world is wrong and he is right.
In the book of Ephesians, Paul says specifically that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In the book of Galatians, Paul says that Christians are both saved by the Spirit and sanctified by the Spirit (3:1-4). Works are excluded. Paul also rebukes anyone who teaches a false gospel based on works righteousness. Such teachers, Paul says, are accursed (Galatians 1:6-12).
This is Christianity 101.
The elders of the Church of Wells should repent of teaching a false gospel of works righteousness and should instead humble themselves and embrace salvation by grace through faith alone.
Update, 5/15/14: There’s a helpful new website about the Church of Wells which questions its doctrine and exposes some of its harmful practices. You can find it here: http://www.thechurchofwells.org/
Liberty for Captives 
Steve, thanks for bringing attention to this church’s teaching out and comparing it with Scripture’s presentation of the gospel. Based on the excerpt from “Condescension of God”, I am not sure what distinguishes Morris’ view of salvation and the Christian life from the official teachings of many denominations. What he says seems in agreement with statements made by many of the early church fathers, Luther, Wesley – pretty much anyone who disagrees with the doctrine of “perseverance of the saints.”
I’m not arguing for or against the belief that you can lose your salvation if you fail to maintain your faith or continue in your good works. But it is not clear from the excerpt what belief “Morris arrives at by jettisoning accepted church teachings and instead creating his own categories and paradigms” and where he creates “a 718-page contortion to explain why everyone else in the world is wrong and he is right.”
Let me know if I missed something and at what point his teaching is exceptional when compared with similar confessions which teach that a Christian can apostatize. He certainly uses phrases I’m not familiar with (savingly, maintain unity with the life, judged dead, walked out, arguing for mercy, etc) so it may be I’m improperly interpreting phrases as odd but orthodox, as opposed to false.
It seems that if anyone who disagrees with “perseverance of the saints” is teaching a false gospel of works righteousness, this problem is much bigger than the Church of Wells.
Hi John,
Sean teaches a false gospel by making salvation a two-step process in which the second step depends on man’s obedience via what he calls “works righteousness.” The result of this teaching is a legalistic, fearful approach to life in which every Christian is on the cusp of being destroyed by God at every moment unless he or she continues to obey God perfectly. It also lends itself to stratification of believers into those who obey “better” than others and thus consider themselves truly saved or more righteous than other professing Christians. The focus inevitably centers on picayune behavior rather than on a renewed heart.
Luther — correct me if I’m wrong — taught that salvation is by faith alone after reading Romans 3:23-24. He reacted against the idea that salvation can be earned, after trying through extreme effort to achieve peace with God via his own good works. Luther said of his works righteousness approach, “If ever a monk could have been saved through his monkery, it was me.” His Reformation was nothing short of a renewed biblical understanding of salvation by grace through faith alone. Works have nothing to do with it. The Protestant Reformation as a whole has embraced the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone, and it is this stream of church tradition which I say Sean has forsaken.
Call it what you will — perseverance of the saints, assurance of salvation, or, better, the faithfulness of God — but the good news of the gospel in the New Testament is that salvation (I’m talking regeneration where God makes somebody who was dead, alive in Christ) is God’s work, not man’s. Such a person can never be plucked from Christ’s hand. They are eternally secure. This is why the gospel is good news and why what Sean preaches is a false gospel and therefore very, very bad news.
I’m not sure it needs to get any more complicated than that, but if I’m missing what you’re asking, fire away.
Grace and peace, Steve
Steve, thanks for the explanation! Keep fighting for the faith 🙂
There’s a very relevant passage in Galatians that you cited in the article, that I just wanted to highlight. Morris teaches in “The Condescension of God” that believers are first sanctified by faith in Jesus, and then are expected to live in perfect “works righteousness” for the rest of their lives, or else their salvation will be lost. Paul speaks to this exact mindset in Galatians 3:1-6:
“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'”
While this passage will not be enough to convince a thoroughly deceived member of the Church of Wells, it should be more than enough to convince an outsider that Morris et al. are preaching a false gospel. If not, there are a whole lot of other Scriptures that back it up!
Exactly.
Sean Morris’s clarifies their stance on salvation by works versus Christ’s salvation in a similar discussion below:
Keith’s Accusation of their Doctrine:
” “Sean Morris’s newest doctrinal book tries to explain the Salvation process (without using the standard terms – Justification, Santification, and Glorification). Instead he teaches a very mis-leading version called “Progressive Salvation” where if you don’t maintain sufficient amounts of spiritual fruit as determined by the church leaders, then you will loose your salvation and will be condemed to hell. If you sin, then have lost your salvation until you come back to repentance. (You are progressively earning and keeping your salvation)”
Sean Morris’ response:
“I would like to say, firstly, that I am not zealous to use “standard terms” which the culture has collectively defined, but biblical terms in which the scripture has defined. Sadly, and tragically, to the subversion of many people, America’s religious culture understands biblical words with cultural definitions instead of biblical definitions. The statements that this man has made in the paragrapoh above is a very good representation of that. It is obvious that he does not understand that sanctification is “present progressive salvation”. If one studies the biblical doctrine of sanctification closely, they will find that the writers of scripture understood it to be the present progressive experience of salvation (the work of God’s saving grace). in fact, if you study the scripture, you will find that salvation is understood to exist in three different time frames so that it can be rightfully said by a true Christian: “I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.” Also, this man (who I have never met) accuses us of defining the “sufficient amount of spiritual fruits” which verifies if one has been saved or is being sanctified, and this is a lie! If this man has ever been in a meeting where this was the topic of discussion, he would clearly see (only by God’s glorious grace) that our standard of measurement concerning the fruits of the Spirit which verify initial salvation and sanctification comes from what the scriptures explicitly address- in other words, WE ARE CITING SCRIPTURE FOR EVERYTHING WE ADDRESS. What I am saying is, the man is railing on us and slandering us. He has never met us and has no idea how we behave. To attack us that we – the church leaders – define the amount of spiritual fruits needed for salvation is simply an extension of the belief that the scriptures are not clear enough to make such definitions themselves – AND I DISAGREE! The last statement made which said, “If you sin, then have lost your salvation until you come back to repentance”, is a lie. We have not ever, nor will we ever (by God’s grace) believe in sinless perfection. There is a difference between sinning non-damnable sins and sinning damnable-sins! Furthermore, a salvation that saves from sin and keeps men holy, is not a salvation of works – it is God’s work (Eph. 2:10)! To verify the authenticity of salvation based upon fruits is, as the scripture states, a verification of the presence of the Spirit of God – for these are “the fruits of the SPIRIT”. Somehow this man is arguing that we teach the fruits of man, the work of man, etc. We believe that when the Spirit of God is in a man, he bears the fruits of the Spirit, and these are not earned but God-given and God-wrought within the redeemed man. This is not man keeping his salvation, this is God keeping the man from damnation!”
Thanks Moses. It’s interesting that Sean makes so much out of passages which most Christian commentators view as unclear. For example, the distinction between damnable and non-damnable sins. Sean seems quite comfortable deciding which is which and letting everyone else know where they stand. While the Bible does say that there is a sin that leads to death (1 John 5:16ff), there is no clarity as to what that is, though some scholars think it means the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is, calling the works of God the works of Satan, or refusing to repent of one’s own self-righteousness. In this case, Sean Morris would be guilty, since he condemns the majority of professing believers while maintaining his own righteousness. Something to think about.
Being raised in a cultish church, much like this one, I have experienced, first hand, what it is to have people claim to be perfected in holiness and yet have no evident “fruit of the spirit” other than a self-righteous attitude toward anyone who doesn’t meet their “sniff” test.
What these people fail to understand is that we, as humans, are very inclined to judge by appearances, while God judges the heart, which only He can see perfectly (see 1 Samuel 16:7, 2 Cor 5:12). It is evident that church discipline depends a lot on us using what we see as a barometer of practice that conforms with a profession of faith. But, not one of us is qualified to judge whether a person is truly saved. It is easier to judge who is not living faithfully, but impossible to say for certain who is secure.
Secondly, these folks who claim perfection, ignore these scriptures:
– “Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” (1 Corinthians 3:18)
– “For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.”
(Galatians 6:3)
– “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:2-4)
– “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.” (1 John 4:18)
While I agree that probably a majority of church-goers today are indeed hypocrites, it is, as Jesus said, impossible for us to separate the tares from the wheat without causing harm to the faith of true followers. The time will come, when the angels separate the children of the devil from the children of the Kingdom of God, at the end of this age.
“Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:43)
While I admire Wesley and other preachers of holiness, I believe they were very wrong to assume Christians were of two groups: the justified only and the sanctified (perfect) sheep. This belief is completely counter to the prayer of Christ that we should all be one flock. We become little children, by God’s grace, in order to believe the simple gospel and over time we mature in the knowledge of Christ and become more like Him, if we are truly His sheep (Colossians 1:10). The perseverance of Jesus’ sheep is dependent on those sheep following Christ and obeying His words. But sheep who are truly born again, Jesus said, “hear My voice” and “A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” (John 10:5)
Excellent. Very well said. Thanks for your comment; I couldn’t agree more.
Dear Stephen, Thanks for including my post and your reply. While it its convenient to imagine what the damnable sin is, to take a position of convenience, Revelation 2,3 details several damnable sins for which Christ is warning the churches, for example not having Christ as one’s first love, tolerating teachings which cause God’s people to immoraltiy, etc. After having met Sean over several long hours, I do know that he is NOT a self-righteous man, but a broken man before God, He does come through as a very strongly judgmental to oppose what he perceives to be against God, he is really acting out of genuine love, like baptist John, or Stephen. Attached below is a letter he wrote to the townspeople of Wells, who are planning a rally on Saturday, and many people are expecting bloodshed…..please pray!
Love in Christ, Moses.
http://proclaimedfromtherooftop.blogspot.com/2014/04/sean-morriss-letter-to-townspeople-of.html
Dear Moses,
Let’s examine the claim that Sean Morris is acting out of love like John the Baptist or Stephen. Sean claims that he is a prophetic voice speaking for God. The Bible has a test for such a claim: does what the prophet says come true? In Sean’s case, he prophesied that God would heal a baby and then, when the baby died, he believed God would raise the baby from the dead. The baby remained dead. This makes Sean a false prophet. If, in matters of physical life and death, Sean is proved false, why should anyone listen to him in regard to spiritual life and death?
A second test of a prophet or teacher is whether the message they proclaim is true or not. In Sean’s case, he teaches a false gospel.
Sean is not a broken man before God as he may sometimes appear. He is a narcissist and has been so from college days. What he calls a prophetic charge to speak boldly to this generation is in fact his own delusions of grandeur and his inability to receive input from anyone else.
While he may have deceived you into thinking he is humble, he is in fact a self-deprecating narcissist whose actions belie his words: https://libertyforcaptives.com/2013/03/14/self-deprecating-narcissists-why-some-christian-narcissists-appear-humble/
This group allowed a baby to die and then condemned anyone who said that there was a problem. This is not of God.
Moses,
One of Sean’s most essential teachings is “by their fruits ye shall know them.” With that teaching in mind, I would like us to take a moment and consider the fruits of the Church of Wells.
* The death of a three-day-old child.
* Seventy families left behind and condemned, at Sean’s urging.
* One kept under voluntary house arrest to shield her from her family.
* Constant confrontation, arguments, and violence in their community.
* National controversy.
* Widespread condemnation from nearly every pastor aware of the church, including senior pastors in Wells and personal hero of Sean’s, Paul Washer.
* Abrasive evangelism.
* Hatred and ruthlessness toward sinners.
* No attempt whatsoever to connect with people in modern society.
* Stilted manner of speech, in KJV parlance, artificially increasing the distance between them and everybody else.
* Complete refusal to speak to the media.
* No accountability to outside leadership.
* Depriving members of all joy in this world.
* Constantly seeking out, and reveling in, persecution.
* Damaged relationships, damaged children, damaged hopes, damaged hearts, damaged lives.
This strikes me as a very accurate list. Thanks for compiling it, Danny.
Just doing my part 🙂
Very helpful post, but I fail to see much of a difference between what this church teaches and what the more Arminian strains of Evangelicalism teach. Wells appears to affirm salvation by grace through faith at the outset, but the fact that one must “maintain” his salvation after the fact smacks of some of what our Pentecostal brothers and sisters believe, for example. I agree that this is a false gospel, but it would appear to allow a person to be genuinely regenerated before falling into a parallel heresy to that found in Galatians.
Dear Matt and Danny, Have you met Sean and the other people from the church? Initially we thought the same about them based on internet slander, but after we came to know them more personally, they are quite the opposite of what they were portrayed to be. They believe in the gospel of grace, an abiding relationship with Christ (John 15:5,6), Holy Spirit submission (Gal 6:7,8), having Christ as our first love (Rev 2:4,5), living a non-complacent Christian life (Rev 3:1-3) and walking in the narrow way (Matt 7:13,14) as among the essential elements of Christ’s salvation, just as the Bible teaches. Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear Moses,
I have not met Sean personally. The reverse is also true: Sean has never met me personally. However, this did not stop him from writing an 18-page letter of condemnation against me and publishing it to his website. In this letter, he also noted the folks who had commented on my initial blog post (many of whom only used their first names) and he extrapolated their full names and detailed their supposed sins for the world to see. This was disgraceful, and may well have been inaccurate, yet he wrote his letter with a prophet’s zeal and seemed unaware that he had violated privacy and could be sued for libel.
Unfortunately, Sean cut off our private Facebook messaging thread after I offered to send him a copy of Philip Yancey’s book “What’s So Amazing About Grace?” He refuses to reply to any further of my questions. This is typical of Sean. He interacts with a person just long enough to either bend them to his will or to reject them as a false teacher. I must say it makes dialogue a challenge.
Let’s be clear what slander means. Slander does not mean saying something critical about another person. Slander is saying something false in order to damage someone else’s reputation. I can’t speak for others, but I have not slandered Sean.
I do not write about the Sean I do not know; only the one I do. I am careful not to say anything untrue. I listened to the Faith Pursely memorial service and took extensive notes so that I could quote Sean accurately and represent his sermon truly. I read through the bulk of Sean’s 718-page book (how many people can say that?) in order to get a clear idea of his doctrine and to extract exact quotes about his interpretation of the gospel.
With his online presence through sermons, essays, and an exceedingly long book, as well as various video clips of him interacting with bystanders and reporters, Sean has created a fairly large online corpus by which to judge both his doctrine and behavior. If he behaves differently in private than he presents in public — and if his views are substantially different in the flesh than online — then he is an exceptionally ineffective public communicator and I’m not sure this reflects well on him.
I also doubt that it is the responsibility of folks who listen to the sermons Sean has posted publicly online or who read his extensive published writings to get to know Sean personally before they judge whether his doctrine is correct or his behavior winsome.
Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul warned their disciples about false teachers, false prophets, and destructive leaders, at least some of whom they had never met in person. This leads me to believe that there are some teachings so destructive that a person need not meet their purveyor in person before calling attention to the error. I believe Sean’s teaching falls in this category. But that, of course, is only my opinion.
Grace and peace, Steve
FYI: I’m not 100% certain, but I believe Moses David is the father of Preethi, Sean’s wife.
-AG3
Roger that. Thanks AEGonis3.
Hey Moses,
I just wanted to make you aware that I do, in fact, personally know and have been in contact with a member of the church of Wells for the past several months. I have also read through the material on their website extensively in order to better communicate with my friend, who I’ve known since high school. I have seen firsthand the dramatic change of his character, from a goofy, joyful and unique kid, into a broken and lifeless prisoner of the false gospel of the church of Wells. Though he speaks of the great works that he sees God doing through that church, I can palpably sense the pain and suffering beneath his voice. I can hear the anguish of the false doctrine taught to him by Sean Morris, the unrelenting terror of God and the absence of his belief in the forgiveness of his sins in Jesus’ name. Though he speaks of the joy of the saints in Wells, I see no evidence of any emotion in his demeanor other than sadness, self-hatred and despair.
That is why I will not give up. For my friend’s sake, I will not give up until he (and all the others) are released from the prison of the false gospel of the church of Wells.
Jordan, buddy, you are loved.
Dear Moses and others.
I am a man who has met Sean Morris and the church of Wells. I am a man that Sean labeled a “false prophet” after knowing me for only 5 minutes. And what makes me a false prophet according so Sean? I opposed a marriage that Sean and the elders arranged. Let me quote Sean Morris with the following quote off of the CoW website: Sean writes:
“In the scripture I find that we should not lay hands suddenly as to receive or ordain
an elder, but also, that we should do nothing suddenly, rashly, or anti-biblical in
rejecting an elder, ministry, person, or work (1 Tim. 5:22).” END QUOTE
The irony of Sean’s words is that while he does not want himself or his followers to be “rejected rashly”, I and MANY other brothers and sisters in the faith have experienced a rash and sudden rejection (usually in a matter of minutes) as brothers simply because Sean and his followers deem us as “unsaved”, “false-prophets”, etc… This is prideful and grievous to the Lord.
I have also met men who have come out from the group and can testify to the prideful and devastating spiritual abuse that many have witnessed and written about. I have seen the devastating fruit. I personally know men and women who have been subjected to the harsh and abusive spiritual treatment. I myself have spent several hours subjected to Sean, Jake, Ryan, Rick, William, Cory, and other men’s foolish abuse of Scripture toward me and my family.
I can go on Moses, of accurate first hand reports from folks in the Wells area that are subjected daily to the religious hypocrisy that Sean has allowed to be engineered within his group.
This isn’t internet slander Moses. I’ve been there. This is real life. And it ain’t pretty.
Moses, I’d like to speak with you personally via phone if possible, or even in person Lord willing. I’ve never met you, but I’ve heard of your love and your faith, and I fear you have been deceived.
In His love,
Richard
Dear Moses I have personally talked with all three elders and questioned them on their understanding of salvation. The conversation was recorded and is available online for all to listen to. The audio recording was unchanged (other than the obvious) and you were in no way mis-represented. Listen to the words which come directly from your own mouths. All of all three of you were present in the conversation. Everyone can listen to the video below and get these specific statements at the 10 minute mark, 24 – 33 minute mark and the 48:25 minute mark.
I (Caleb Corneloup) have been accused of mis-representing the teachings of the church of Wells but a careful examination of the recorded conversation reveals their beliefs to be as follows;
1. When a person commits any known sin of commission or omission they enter into a damnable state.
2. Most of the time a Christian reflexively repents and comes out of that state.
3. If a Christian does not reflexively repent they remain in a damnable state.
4. Christians in a damnable state are not forgiven of their sins and Christ does not administer His blood on their behalf.
5. Those in a damnable state are still Christians and are children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who strives against their flesh to bring them to repentance.
6. If a Christian dies in a damnable state they go to hell.
Instead of responding to the arguments in the video they accused me of slandering them, so it seems there is little point talking to them. I am currently making a video series refuting their doctrines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQByikhSxWc
Kind Regards
Caleb Corneloup
[…] Theological Arguments Against the Church of Wells 1 2 3 4 […]
I have attempted to remain in conversation with the ‘elders’ of the church of wells but they have cut me off because of my unwillingness to condemn the ‘sins’ of another person. This they have told me in writing. Until I am willing to repent of not telling another person to repent then I can have no further conversations with them.
I am a Pastor and have a friend who is caught in this group. For a time, the elders were willing to talk with me – they even drove to my state. This all changed when they laid down their requirement of righteousness – that I condemn another person’s sins. I have been told that there will be no more conversations.
Moses, I fear you have been fooled. Perhaps you want to remain in contact with your daughter and that is why you remain supportive of this group. I am a Father and I can understand that. Yet, you are blinded by that to the point that you cannot see what is actually happening. There are serious doctrinal errors here. Sean has set himself, and the elders, up as the guardians of the church and have consolidated such authority into their hands that it is unhealthy. There is immense pride in each of these three elders. I have met with them face to face and I have spoken to them. Do not tell me that I just need to meet with them. Besides, they are no longer willing to do so.
Moses, look no further than Sean’s work the Doctrine of Judgment. His 5 levels of judgment show very clearly that he is twisting Scripture to his own liking. These levels of judgment are nowhere in Scripture. They use what is convenient, often ripping passages out of their context. You have contact with your daughter as long as you do not say anything against the church. This is what I learned in my conversations with them – they are willing to meet as long as they do the talking and you sit down and shut up. They are not open to conversation.
Moses, please, this is a dangerous situation. The group in Wells is seeking violence and seeking persecution. They are going to continue to place themselves into dangerous situations. Call me, I would love to talk with you. Email me at ericjamesmoffett@gmail.com.
The elders have proven that they are false prophets. Please don’t continue your support.
Well said, Eric. Thanks for sharing.
I knew Sean at Baylor. I saw quite a lot of him. I went to the church he went to in Waco for several years. I have a very clear memory of sitting in a dorm lobby listening to him give his “testimony” for the better part of 2 hours with his girlfriend at the time, nearly 10 years ago. This was before he started the street preaching.
Even then, I was scared. I was a very devout, rather fundamentalist Christian at the time. Yet what I heard from Sean creeped me out and from then on I spent as little time with him as possible (despite several overlapping friends). From him I only received judgment. I saw firsthand the effect he had on his girlfriend, and it was horrifying. He was trying to crush her, using the excuse of God’s will to crush her. Thankfully, she was and is a beautiful strong woman who eventually had the courage to leave him. I didn’t have the courage to tell her to do so earlier, or if I did she never took me seriously. She was thoroughly in his thrall.
I now live in Idaho, but what I am seeing coming out of Wells terrifies me. I don’t know what can be done, legally, but there is no doubt in my mind that the people in this church are being mentally and emotionally abused.
Thanks for sharing, Jasnah.
Dear Steve,
I have met Sean personally, but I have not met you. Was his letter in response to your post concerning him before you made an attempt to know him personally? You mentioned that you wanted to send him Philip Yancey’s book. Do you agree with Philip Yancey’s statement, “Do I believe that gay people can be committed Christians? Absolutely. I know far too many of them to doubt that. I also believe that alcoholics and prideful hypocrites can be committed Christians. In short, sinners can, and I’ve stepped back from ranking other people’s sins.”
Love in Christ,
Moses
Dear Eric,
I do not know you personally, but I do know the Church of Wells members personally. Do you obey Christ’s command, “Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.”~1 John 2:15-17 (NIV)?
Love in Christ,
Moses
Dear Moses,
No, Sean’s letter was in response to my post about him allowing a baby to die. You may recall that this whole thing started when Sean and the other elders prophesied that God would be pleased to heal baby Faith without medical treatment. Instead, she died. She died! Most people would call that false prophecy and negligent homicide. Are you suggesting that if I met Sean in person it would change those facts? Does what happened to baby Faith make you angry? It sure makes me angry. But Sean seems untroubled by it and instead casts aspersion on his critics. That is called “blame-shifting” and it is awful.
I listened to the memorial service Sean preached and posted to the Church of Wells website for the general public to understand the doctrines of the Church of Wells. It was from that publicly posted sermon and from the news report about the death of Faith Pursely that I wrote my post. I had no need to meet Sean Morris personally. To suggest that I was somehow wrong to write what I did from publicly available records posted by Sean himself is to create a scenario in which a Christian can say nothing about another group unless he or she has met them personally. That is absurd. Not even the Apostle Paul or Jesus Christ himself were constrained by such regulations. Neither am I bound by these false constraints.
I am unsure what Yancey’s quote has to do with the book I recommended to Sean, or why my offer would cause Sean to cut off contact with me with no explanation. If you could explain how this is relevant to this conversation — or where Sean’s sin of negligent homicide/murder ranks in the scale of sin — I will happily answer your question.
Grace and peace, Steve
Moses, while I agree, like Jude, that many in the churches turn grace into a license to sin and forget that those who practice any sin that defines them are not true disciples of Christ.
However, Sean appears to think that a Christian’s primary calling to to judge everyone. Scripture is clear that we are to stop judging one another (Luke 6:37) and we have no right to judge those we believe are not believers (1 Cor 5:12) or by what we ourselves perceive.
To make judging our primary task is to break the command to “not speak against one another” and ignore Paul’s advice in Galatians 5:11-13.
None of us can judge another person’s faults or lack of understanding. We are to teach in love and pray for one another that we may all grow in the knowledge of Christ. Those who practice a particular sin, judge themselves, because the become identified by it. In this I disagree wholeheartedly with Yancey’s statement of latitude for “high-handed” sin.
But knowledge is not the evidence of being saved. Love is.
Prodigal, I think we have to make a distinction here. While I have “theological” questions about Wells and its leaders (in my mind they are committing the equivalent to the Galatian heresy by preaching “another gospel,” and that is clearly condemned in Galatians 1), we need to not confuse their method (open air or street preaching) with their message. There are hundreds of faithful men using this method worldwide (including yours truly) because it is wholly biblical. The issue isn’t “how” but “what” is being preached.
As for being judgmental, Jesus certainly called people names in judgment (or referred to them by using names; e.g., brood of vipers, hypocrites, swines, dogs, serpents, blind guides, fools, murderers, a fox, whitewashed tombs, children of the devil, etc.). Okay, you may say, “That was Jesus and Jesus is God.” Well, how about Paul then?
“Do your best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.” – 2 Tim. 4:9-10
“Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.” – 2 Tim. 4:14-15
And Jude (vv. 8-16)?
“Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’ These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.”
Just sayin’…
Moses,
As for your question, I will answer it but you should know that I am accountable to The Lord. I have not questioned or judged you or your righteousness, nor will I even though you are attempting to do that to me.
I am not a lover of the world. The Lord has graciously and miracously save me not according to my righteousness but according to the righteousness of Christ. My first love is Christ. I have been crucified with Christ, as Paul was. And like Paul, the life I live is no longer my own. I love Christ and that is why I am concerned.
Open your eyes Moses! You are neglecting the truth in fear of losing your daughter it seems.
The cow has left a trail of destruction that is not of The Lord.
The elders now refuse to answer any more of my questions unless I repent of a sin that I have not been convicted if by the Spirit.
Please email me. I would like to talk.
Willy,
I agree with your distinction concerning street preaching. I should have been more clear about what I was addressing.
I take issue with their presumed ability to judge who is and is not “born again” and their basis for shunning people and/or refusing to converse with others truthfully and openly despite the possibility their words might be used against them.
Their unwillingness to be transparent to everyone is indicative of a judgmental and self-righteous attitude that does not bring glory to God or lift up Christ as the One who said “come to Me, all who are weary and burdened” and “if I (emphasis on HIM) am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself”.
This is NOT what I see these folks doing. They preach more condemnation than is appropriate and rule by fear rather than love, based on what I have seen, heard and read.
Thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity.
Thanks Prodigal! We’re, therefore, in complete agreement! I share your concerns; they obviously aren’t convinced their views and behavior are 100% biblical, or they would be more than happy to clarify their position before those who question it. They appear to “run” from anything and anyone that seriously questions them. Can you spell “CULT?”
Dear All,
I think you all are doing just that, judgment without love, judgment without knowledge, of not contacting the person first to know all the details, of using the wordly wisdom to judge. Steve, are you condemning Sean and the Church of Wells because they had faith (not enough) to receive healing from the Creator of this universe of the sick child, or to know and accept God’s will for this child? Is taking a person for medical care the standard by which Christ judges His children? Have you, out of love, offered to pay the medical bills for these saints who have little financial means to receive medical care, eat good food, have the basic comforts of life, or, have you thought about purchasing medical insurance for them? Have you cried and prayed that the physical wounds inflicted upon them by the violent men while sharing the Gospel would be healed in the Name of Jesus Christ, when they do not even have the ability to go a hospital to receive medical care for their wounds? Why are you not condemning every person who took a sick person into medical care, and the person still died? Are you demonstrating love by condemning them in the loss of their beloved child? Willy, what is the “other gospel” in your mind that they are preaching? Have you clarified with them of your understanding of their doctrine before taking part in the bloodshed of Christ?
1 Peter 4:17,18 (NIV) For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?…
Love in Christ,
Moses
So you’re saying, Moses, that one is healed only if he (or his church) has enough faith? Where do you find that in the Bible? As for the physical aggression on the part of the Wells’ townsfolk, it goes with the territory when you preach open air. I know this first hand. Given the fact that the church’s neighbors have learned more about these newcomers through media outlets means questions and resentment. The preachers understood the risk and went ahead and preached anyway. I’d say their “physical wounds” have more to do with their stupidity, stubbornness and/or their martyr’s complex than with our needing to feel sorry for them. They got what they, essentially, “asked for.” That may sound harsh, and I don’t ever advocate violence, but either they weren’t being “wise as serpents”… or maybe they were (the one in Genesis 3)?
To answer your direct question, Moses, the “other gospel” is teaching that you must maintain your salvation, and that is exactly what the judaizers were teaching the Galatian church. I say with Paul, “SOLA GRATIA”… from beginning to end (Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:6)!
Dear Moses,
I do not judge Sean for his lack of faith. His faith or lack thereof have nothing to do with what happened. I hold him accountable for committing negligent homicide and for believing that nothing is the matter with letting a child die.
In America, no one can be denied medical treatment at an Emergency Room. Everyone knows this. Even the homeless and drug addicts receive treatment for free. In part that is why hospital bills are so expensive: those who can afford to pay subsidize those who cannot. My own family has been unable to afford medical insurance for certain time periods, but this would never prevent me from seeking medical treatment for a deathly sick child. Prayer? Sure. But also using the technology for healing that God has given as gifts to our generation.
Members of the Church of Wells can receive subsidized health insurance at rock-bottom rates through ObamaCare, Medicare, or Medicaid. This is not an argument for letting a baby die. Indeed, there is no acceptable justification for what happened to baby Faith Pursely. To say it was God’s will not to heal the baby is false. It was God’s will that this baby receive appropriate medical help which was readily available. I am unable to state this any more clearly or emphatically.
I wonder, Moses, what is preventing you from acknowledging this obvious truth?
– Steve
Dear Steve,
You are unrighteously judging the people of God by worldly standards and thereby shedding the righteous blood of saints.
Love in Christ,
Moses
Matthew 27:25(NIV) All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”
Genesis 4:6-12 (NIV)Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” “I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”
The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”
Well then, we disagree. I am glad for the opportunity to dialogue with you, Moses. I pray that you continue to think about these things. If you ever want to email me, my address is on the Contact page.
Sent from my iPhone
>
How is Steve “shedding the righteous blood of saints,” Moses? You make an accusation and back it up with…?
Moses, even the devil quoted Scripture to serve his own purposes. No one is debating that Sean and the other elders are using Scripture. What they are doing is grossly twisting it, emphasizing some parts and de-emphasizing and completely ignoring others. I fail to see how anyone in here is shedding blood, or even persecuting. What I see, for the most part, is a rational discussion of how Sean’s doctrine does not line up up with Jesus’s doctrine. No one is railing. No one is persecuting. No one is shedding blood.
As a parent, adults have a responsibility to seek medical care for their children. An emergency room would’ve treated baby Faith, even if her parents had no insurance or money. Here in the US, that is the law. It is one reason costs are so high for the rest of us. As a spiritual leader, Sean and the other elders have the responsibility to advise their parishioners on the best course to follow. If God had truly revealed that baby Faith were to be healed, then SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HEALED.
As the Bible says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.” – Deut. 18:21-22
The fact that she was not healed or raised from the dead means that either God lied or the elders heard him wrong. If, as you claim, the reason Faith died was because those who prayed for her did not have enough faith (which is works-based, by the way), then we should be holding those who did not have enough faith responsible. Whether it is because they failed to take her to the emergency room or because they failed to have enough faith, it is the fault of the adults surrounding her that baby Faith died.
And they should be held morally and legally accountable. To do anything else is wrong.
Dear Steve, I really think you and I should talk via telephone. I am a private investigator closely connected to the CoW events and I believe that you could possibly have info that would be relevant and helpful that would help us further stop the human enslavement and trafficking element which is behind the scenes and often overlooked in Wells.
830-481-7944
Thank you sir.
P.S. To help you feel comfortable and to establish my bona files please see the Bound No More on Facebook.
Dear Nick, sorry for the delay. I was off the Internet the last day or so for Easter with my family. I’m not sure I have any information that would help with the specific area you’re researching, but I’m happy to give you a call. Let’s take this offline. Can you shoot me an email with a couple more specifics? My email is libertyforcaptives@gmail.com Thanks! – Steve
Oh, I forgot, Moses. You take some verses totally out of context and that’s supposed to serve to explain accusation against Steve? At least you’re consistent with what the leadership of the Church of Wells does.
Moses said ~ “Have you, out of love, offered to pay the medical bills for these saints who have little financial means to receive medical care, eat good food, have the basic comforts of life, or, have you thought about purchasing medical insurance for them?”
None of them look like they are starving Moses. There are at least 6 businesses associated with this group.
Moses also said ~ ” are you condemning Sean and the Church of Wells because they had faith (not enough) to receive healing from the Creator of this universe of the sick child, ”
Moses, that is the same heresy that Ken Copland, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn teach. It is called “Word Faith Heresy” that our faith can get us anything we want including a brand new jet or make us the Director of a large company, if we have enough faith.
Do you believe that Moses ? Do you agree with Copland, Meyer and Hinn ??
The reality is my friend that no matter how much faith we have, God is sovereign and He was not looking on at the baby Faith situation with His head in His hands, shaking His head saying “If only they had exercised enough faith that baby would have lived.”
Yet that is what the Elders of this Church are teaching.
Now do you see why people are sounding the alarm ?
I hope to hear back from you on this Moses.
With respect
Dear Steve, Thank you for the opportunity to share on your blog, I appreciate your openness to allow an alternate point of view to remain on your blog, so the reader can take appropriate sides, as the Lord opens his/her eyes. LIC, Moses
Dear Willy, May the Lord help you to see the connection of these passages to the topic of our discussion. I request you to prayerfully consider them, even as you think about Christ’s sacrifice, on this Good Friday. LIC, Moses
I can’t seem to post an image, but this is a really good summary of what is a safe church or group. Check it out.
Dear Jasnah, Here is a better summary of what is a safe church or group. Please check it out:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Love in Christ,
Moses
I am very familiar with that verse, Moses. but I think you will agree with me that many people who follow that verse are not part of safe groups. Sean certainly preaches that many people who believe that verse (as in, most Christian churches including Catholics and Mormons) are going to hell. And yes, I have heard him preach it and talked to him about it. So perhaps it is not such a good guide to a safe group.
Sean’s group is controlling, secretive, and not able to accept criticism, as evidenced by your defense of them. As long as they continue to exhibit these qualities, they are undeniably a cult.
Dear Jasnah, When you said, “that verse” in your reply in reference to my note, which verse were you referring to that are you familiar with, that many people including Catholics and Mormons believe? Love in Christ, Moses.
Dear All, The Bible promises us that we will know what God’s will is when we practice the following by faith, sometimes healing, other times not, but God will always answer prayer according to His good, pleasing and perfect will. I lost a baby too, in my wife’s pregnancy, even after going to the emergency room, and I lost a 26-year old brother too of heartattack, even after they called 911. In all these things, God’s good and sovereign purposes are PERFECT, and it is unrighteous to judge another man by the world’s standards! As the following verse instructs, we are not to conform to the pattern of this world.
Romans 12:1,2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Moses,
At least in both the instances you cites, an logical and reasonable attempt was made to do all you could, humanly speaking. To assume that God must heal a sick baby, though, without taking the present gifts of God into account, is like assuming that God will send you ravens bearing bread when you are hungry, when you have food in the cupboard.
Please answer my question Moses…
Moses, that is the same heresy that Ken Copland, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn teach. It is called “Word Faith Heresy” that our faith can get us anything we want including a brand new jet or make us the Director of a large company, if we have enough faith.
Do you believe that Moses ? Do you agree with Copland, Meyer and Hinn ??
Thank you.
Dear Prodigal, To assume that God will ONLY use medical methods to heal a sick child is to put God in a box created by the poison of human wisdom. I did not say that medical treatment was not an option, neither that the Church of Wells will not use medical treatment in other situations, but to judge them by the worldly standards you subscribe to, is not reasonable in God’s sight. If you truly loved them, you would grieve with them for the loss of their precious baby and the unrighteous judgment inflicted upon them by a cruel, wicked world, devoid of the knowledge of the supremacy of a great, omnipotent, merciful, righteous, God, who is also a Father to those who put their sole hope in HIm, and Him alone. Love in Christ, Moses
Psalm 20:7-9 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, Lord: let the king hear us when we call.
Dear Moses,
How do you and the Church of Wells determine a decision to seek medical attention for physical distress, injury, or illness is “worldly wisdom”? Is each situation judged the same by you and the Church of Wells or is the criteria for seeking medical treatment different for each situation? Does it depend on the individual who is in distress, injured, or ill? Thank you for helping me understand.
Excellent question. And who ultimately makes the decision? Do the Elders give direction, or does the individual decide for themselves and their children?
I was referring to the verse that is on the page you quoted, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:9-10 NIV”
I see that is the verse of the day, and I realize that you may have meant to refer to the entire Bible rather than just the one verse. Nonetheless, the point still stands. Many denominations follow the Bible and believe it to be true and the word of God. However, Sean still believes most of them are not saved.
Moses, I posted this further up the thread but I assume you haven’t seen it, since there has been no response.
Moses, even the devil quoted Scripture to serve his own purposes. No one is debating that Sean and the other elders are using Scripture. What they are doing is grossly twisting it, emphasizing some parts and de-emphasizing and completely ignoring others. I fail to see how anyone in here is shedding blood, or even persecuting. What I see, for the most part, is a rational discussion of how Sean’s doctrine does not line up up with Jesus’s doctrine. No one is railing. No one is persecuting. No one is shedding blood.
As a parent, adults have a responsibility to seek medical care for their children. An emergency room would’ve treated baby Faith, even if her parents had no insurance or money. Here in the US, that is the law. It is one reason costs are so high for the rest of us. As a spiritual leader, Sean and the other elders have the responsibility to advise their parishioners on the best course to follow. If God had truly revealed that baby Faith were to be healed, then SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HEALED.
As the Bible says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.” – Deut. 18:21-22
The fact that she was not healed or raised from the dead means that either God lied or the elders heard him wrong. If, as you claim, the reason Faith died was because those who prayed for her did not have enough faith (which is works-based, by the way), then we should be holding those who did not have enough faith responsible. Whether it is because they failed to take her to the emergency room or because they failed to have enough faith, it is the fault of the adults surrounding her that baby Faith died.
And they should be held morally and legally accountable. To do anything else is wrong.
Dear Jasnah, I think they believed that God would heal baby Faith, hoping against all hopes, not like a prophecy that you are imagining. In 2 Samuel 12, God told king David “the son who was born to you wil die” But David fasted and prayed for the baby. The baby died on the seventh day. In a similar way, the Church of Wells desired and cried out to God for the baby’s life. Please do not judge them harshly without knowing the complete truth. Love in Christ, Moses
Dear All, What about parents who do not bring their children to the Great Physician for His healing, ignoring the spiritual health of their children, and offering them as a sacrifice unto the Baals and Ashtoreths of today, and thereby condemning them to spiritual death and torment with eterna; weeping and gnashing of teeth in a place called hell? Why don’t you condemn those who murder their children like that, instead of condemning the righteous who live by faith? Love in Christ, Moses
Matthew 19:14 (NIV) Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Please answer my question Moses…
Moses, that is the same heresy that Ken Copland, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn teach. It is called “Word Faith Heresy” that our faith can get us anything we want including a brand new jet or make us the Director of a large company, if we have enough faith.
Do you believe that Moses ? Do you agree with Copland, Meyer and Hinn ??
Thank you.
Hey, what was wrong with my reply ?
I was looking forward to hearing what Moses said.
I understand it is your website and you have the prerogative to do what you like.
An explanation would be good though.
Lord bless
My mistake …sorry Brother
Moses,
As Prodigal Knot pointed out, in the instances you gave there is no reason to assume that the biblical characters did not do everything humanly possibly to help their child live. Modern medicine very well could have saved baby Faith, had her parents only asked for it. Instead, they trusted their leaders and a twisted version of God, with horrific results. Not making sure your child receives necessary medical care is child abuse, and has been successfully prosecuted as such here in the states.
I really do not understand how I can make it any clearer. I can only assume that you are being willfully ignorant, and because of your pride you do not want to admit that this group may be wrong and has made mistakes.
I hope and pray that you and your daughter see the truth before any more tragedies happen, and before more lives are ruined. I hope and pray the elders recognize their narcissism and pride and humbly beg forgiveness of their followers and release them from their invisible bonds sooner rather than later. I hope and pray no one else dies because of these lies.
Dear Dale, As I mentioned in my previous post, faith involves praying according to God’s will and being content in it, whether it is to receive healing, or to accept physical death. Praying only to receive our desires would not be faith because we want to receive what we like, rather than to trust in God’s perfect plan for us. Sometimes God gifts faith to do miracles according to His will to receive glory to His Name. In the case of baby Faith, they prayed against all hopes for physical healing, but this was not God’s will, and they have accepted that. If it was the case that the parents and church people neglected the baby and did something else like watch a movie, or drink, or entertain themselves in some other way and neglected the well being of the child, that would be negligence….these people cried out to God for many hours because they loved this little child. To proclaim the jugment of negligence without being in their shoes and understanding their faith in an omnipotent God is unrighteous, especially without being present with them and understanding the circumstances that led to their decisions.
Love in Christ,
Moses
Moses said ~ ” In the case of baby Faith, they prayed against all hopes for physical healing, but this was not God’s will, and they have accepted that”
Now we have a contradiction here, because according to their website,and the conversations I have had with them, it was their “lack of faith” the reason the baby was not brought back to life, nothing to do with the will of God.
Now can you try and answer my question again please ~
Do you agree with heretics Ken Copland, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn ??
A simple yes or no will suffice.
Thank you
Dear Dale, I do not know much about Ken Copland, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn, so I cannot comment about them. In the attached memorial service details about Faith. Sean Morris explains that they rejoice at the sovereignty of God in light of God’s will for Faith, and details the instruction from God’s Word (in 13:00-15:00 portion), “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up” Based on the fact that the baby was not saved from sickness, Sean is stating that “they did not have faith to see the child healed” They acknowledge that God uses the medical field and clarifies many other misunderstandings about them. Love in Christ, Moses.
[audio src="http://www.thechurchofwells.com/files/theme/Faith%20Pursley%20Memorial%20Sermon%20060112.mp3" /]
Moses said ~ “Based on the fact that the baby was not saved from sickness, Sean is stating that “they did not have faith to see the child healed”
So God had to let the baby die then ? because of their lack of faith ?
Don’t you see a problem with that statement Moses ?
With respect
Dear Dale, I believe in God’s promise, “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick” I do not have a problem with Sean’s statement given the fact that they humbly accepted God’s will without bitterness because they know Christ’s love for them in spite of the baby’s death. If we knew God’s will in all circumstances perfectly well, then all our prayers will be in perfect faith. “When the perfect comes, the partial will be done away” We see in Paul’s life that he entreated the Lord three times that the thorn in his flesh, a messenger of Satan will be taken away, but God answered, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness”
Love in Christ, Moses
Psalm 22:1-31 (NIV)
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
Moses said ~ ” I believe in God’s promise, “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick” I do not have a problem with Sean’s statement given the fact that they humbly accepted God’s will without bitterness because they know Christ’s love for them in spite of the baby’s death”
I think you are missing the point here Moses….Please follow with me here ~
If they are to have “enough” faith for the baby to be healed and if they don’t then she dies…right ?
Yet Sean and co also “accept God’s will” in this situation.
How do they conclude that it was their lack of faith for the reason the baby was not healed and died ??
If it was the will of God for baby faith to die then surely their faith no matter how great will not change that right ???
And if that being so, how can they make the statement “it was our lack of faith” ???
Also, the leaders of this group said “They believed God said that He was going to raise the baby back to life”
They were obviously wrong and therefore, Is that not a false prophecy and does that not make them false prophets ??
**I should add that I feel sorrow for all involved including the parents and family of baby faith in this tragic situation.
There is however, an important point to be drawn out of this disastrous mess and I hope by the grace of God eyes will be opened to the faulty thinking at CoW.**
With respect
Dear Dale, This is an intellectual argument in which I do not want to participate. I commend the high view of God that the Church of Wells people had in seeking the Lord’s help first (and last) for the healing of baby Faith, and to accept His will concerning the baby’s departure from this life. I am blessed to meet Faith’s parents, the elders and all the others who supported one another in the difficult loss of baby Faith.
Love in Christ,
Moses.
Moses said ~ “Dear Dale, This is an intellectual argument in which I do not want to participate.”
You see Moses, the reason you cannot engage with my questions, is simply because the answers to them expose the faulty un-Biblical thinking and teaching of the CoW.
We have a saying here in the Western world you may not be familiar with, it goes something like this ~ “There are non so blind as those who refuse to see!”
God gave us intellects for a reason Moses ~ It is ok to use them.
And He warned us of false teachers so that we would be on the look out for them ~
Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits…
The fruit of Cow is not looking very good at the moment Moses ~ Catherine Grove visiting her parents would go a long way to change that….we wait patiently and prayerfully.
With respect
Moses, I’ve been accompanying your discussion with Dale. What I find interesting is that you imply that the Church of Wells leaders and members did everything in their power to see baby Faith healed. While that may be true in the spiritual realm, these folks should have started a process of elimination before resorting to a “prayer-in-faith-only” treatment. For example, if you break your leg, are you just going to pray for healing? I’ll bet you’d go to a doctor and have him or her put the bone(s) involved back into place and put it in a cast. Now, if the leg isn’t healing or there are other complications beyond the scope of medicine, by all means pray!
I dare ask, “Why was baby Faith not given the same treatment?” Get her diagnosed, and only if there is NOTHING that can be done medically, commit her recovery to the Lord in prayer. You say there was no negligence, but I beg to differ with you. By avoiding a medical diagnosis, they let a baby girl die without doing all they could to save her. There are “old hat” treatments for us today that were non-existent back in NT times. A compound fracture without antibiotics could result in gangrene, the loss of the affected member and even death. Prayer would have been necessary, as medical knowledge was so much less back then. But today such a treatment is “old hat” and not worthy of a “prayer-in-faith-only” treatment. Why wasn’t baby Faith given that option? Now that she’s dead, you and the CofW wants us to feel sorry for everyone involved because, after all, “they did all they could.” Yeah, right. The only person I feel sorry for is baby Faith.
Moses,
This is not an “intellectual argument.” It is an all-important one in determining if the Church of Wells is preaching a false gospel or not. If it is a false gospel, then Bible-following Christians MUST reject it. If it is not a false gospel, then you should be able to explain it – to us and to yourself.
I hope and pray that you will truly seek truth, even if you do not like what you find.
And therein lies the problem. It can be very painful to face the truth. I believe that Moses does not want to face the truth and feels a need to defend the leadership of the church of Wells for the sake of maintaining a relationship with his daughter. It’s that simple. Go against them and they will cut him off. Defend them publicly and they will allow the relationship to be maintained. That in itself is a lie. There isn’t a true relationship there. But you know how it goes, keep saying the same thing over and over and over and it becomes truth to you. There is a word for it………
I believe that eventually, Moses will see the truth for what it is, if he really chooses to examine it with God’s light. The same with any of the people that are choosing to live amongst each other at the church of Wells. If not, then Moses will continue to be deceived and will walk in a shroud of darkness. As will the rest. Until God intervenes. And He will.
I agree with TBT above. Everyone at COW including the “elders” will communicate to a point but when challenged to look at different points they cut off communication. They are afraid of finding out they are wrong so they won’t even go there. I have experienced this personally. This is not hearsay! The truth will come forth…the true gospel will prevail. Until then we must pray for God to intervene in this mess!
The language of communication is everything. Generalizations can often be mistruths. Statements have an original basis of truth, but become lies and deliberate deceit. It’s important to learn not to do this, however much it might be socially-accepted habit. We’re taught to be cognizant and avoid this kind of speech in university communications classes and employee workshops.
When we do this when we’re talking about others, it frames our perspective as ‘us versus them’. It negatively influences our perceptions and beliefs. Creates barriers – we’re the good guys; they’re the bad guys. We do it right; they do it wrong. Speaking this way fails to acknowledge the diversity of thought and opinion; the complicated layers and strata of how humans think and form opinion. We don’t all believe the same thing about anything! Nor do we form opinions in homogenized one dimension. We decide as we go, picking and choosing what we believe from an ongoing perpetual information upload process.
This group and its supporters, like Moses David, speak in hyperbole and exaggeration. Their street-preaching style, recorded sermons and written philosophies reflect this. Contemporary churches are wrong. People go to church to be entertained, not to pray. Everyone is evil and confused. This is a behaviour modification technique. It delivers consistent and repetitive messaging that influences over a period of time.
Moses David: “…we thought the same about them [Sean Morris, et al.] based on internet slander, but after we came to know them more personally, they are quite the opposite of what they were portrayed to be.”
The word “slander” means something completely made up. Bogus. Intentionally to make someone/something look bad. To dislike, disagree, or even publicly condemn, is NOT slander. It’s variance of opinion.
It baffles me that a Ph.D in chemical engineering and patent holder would rely on internet gossip to form an opinion on anything. Much less, a leader of his own formal church. I imagine the internet was a common source he used to see what there was about this group and formed the same questions as anyone else. But unlike others, this guy had a direct personal resource to find out more – a founder and former member who knows these young men intimately. Lived with them. Knows exactly what the ‘Church of Wells’ is about.
As far as how this group is “portrayed,” portrayed as what by whom? What exactly does Mr. David believe them to be the opposite of?
Moses David: “To assume that God will ONLY use medical methods to heal a sick child is to put God in a box created by the poison of human wisdom. I did not say that medical treatment was not an option, neither that the Church of Wells will not use medical treatment in other situations, but to judge them by the worldly standards you subscribe to, is not reasonable in God’s sight.”
This is a fallacious statement of hyperbole. And a bit asinine and unworthy, in my opinion. No one said or implied this, anywhere, anytime. I don’t believe anyone assumes God ONLY uses medical methods to heal.
But he does go on to say that medical treatment is not an option. That it interferes with God’s Will. That one prays for healing (in Baby Faith’s case, for resurrection) and God decides. That medical care undermines faith.
“Based on the fact that the baby was not saved from sickness, Sean is stating that “they did not have faith to see the child healed” They acknowledge that God uses the medical field and clarifies many other misunderstandings about them.”
I don’t understand how this demonstrates that Sean Morris believes God uses medicine and how this clarifies misunderstandings.
“Is taking a person for medical care the standard by which Christ judges His children?” and “Why are you not condemning every person who took a sick person into medical care, and the person still died?”
This is nothing more than deflective quarreling. But yes, God does judge people for how they care for babies.
“Have you cried and prayed that the physical wounds inflicted upon them…would be healed…when they do not even have the ability to go a hospital to receive medical care for their wounds?”
This group of 100 souls – men, women, children and babies – do not have “the ability” to seek medical treatment? Why would that be?
“I lost a baby too…even after going to the emergency room, and I lost a 26-year old brother too of heartattack, even after they called 911.”
I don’t understand how this is relevant or reconciles this group’s behaviour and conduct and belief system and doctrine. Mr. David, you don’t mention your family member that received successful emergency intervention for cardiac arrest and a subsequent top-quality medical treatment plan of care that corrected a life-threatening condition and the additional blessing of the bill paid.
“You are unrighteously judging the people of God by worldly standards…”
This is ultimately revealing. Sean Morris and his ‘Church of Wells’ are the people of God. They believe themselves to be exempt from worldly standards.
Frightening.
Very well written article. Thankyou for writing it. I have been praying for all those effected by this false doctrine the church of wells preaches ever since I saw it on Nightline. It is a very serious thing, when a church teaches false doctrine that leads those away from Salvation. Even worse to see all those little children in the group being led astray. Very serious indeed.
This can all be summed up quite simply. The Church of Wells professes a great deal and I am not here to engage in banter, to defend my position, or to condemn the viewpoints of others. What I am is…. objective and offering some points that need to be addressed. Plain and simple…if I am a member of a church or synagogue, I can come and go as I please, worship when I wish, be as involved as I want, but most importantly…I am not disconnected from my family and friends. Moreover, my family and friends have not witnessed a drastic personality change in me nor have I condemned anyone I love or have respect for, regardless of my belief system. I do not live with my fellow parishioners and I do not inter-marry within my parishioner group nor are there arranged marriages. When a group crosses the boundaries of what is appropriate and what is not…then their actions and the actions of those who lead and are involved…naturally come into play. Lastly, if any family member walks into a church/synagogue and seeks the help of clergy because their loved one…”suddenly and without warning” have left “their life and undergone a drastic personality change,” that clergy member would be welcoming and try to be an intermediary. In fact, they would move “heaven and earth” to help that family. If the Church of Wells were true to their words and preaching’s how can they stand by and allow Catherine Grove or any member disconnect from the parents and families who have loved them their whole lives? It is not up to anyone to determine whether the love of parents and family members is pure or reverant…no one. If you TRULY have nothing to hide then any follower whose family comes to you …worried for their loved ones concern…you would move “heaven and earth” to try and reunite them…not further alienate them. The thing is this…if someone is truly a follower…they follow because someone is leading them…without condition. Parents lead without condition…that is what pure love is all about. To those who wish to hide behind scripture for something so basic, then so be it, but this situation is simple. If you have nothing to hide…at least allow the Groves…or any family…to meet with their loved one…whenever they wish and with the privacy they all deserve. If your follower truly is following you- there is nothing to fear…they will come back to you. If not…and they fly…then they were not meant to be there. Any followers should be allowed to visit their home, their relatives and do whatever they wish..in the name of free will. If you prevent this…..all of the bad press you are receiving is well deserved because your actions are speaking far louder than your words.
Dear All, I do not want to argue with you folks, but I would like to urge you to humble yourself before God to study the Bible without using the lens of man-made doctrine. All Scripture is “God-Breathed,” with the power to give you life in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Do not perish by taking a position of convenience to support sin, or to love the things of this world which are perishing. The world and its desires will pass away, but only the one who does the will of God will live. The only way to do the will of God is to have His Holy Spirit, given to everyone who repents and puts his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and to submit to God’s Holy Spirit on a moment-by-moment basis. Watch and pray so you will not fall into temptation, abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ, stand fast in faith, fear God and shun evil, persevere under trial, return to the first love in God, strive to enter through the narrow gate, resist the devil, set your mind fully on the hope to be revealed when Jesus Christ returns in the clouds to gather those that are IN Christ, those whose lives have been built upon the Cornerstone of Jesus Christ. Every thing else is vain! LIC, Moses.
To be totally honest, I think the length of this debate in the comments, and its ultimate result proves that there is nothing to be gained at all by arguing doctrine with church of Wells supporters. Our spiritual “terms” (i.e. man-made doctrine, salvation, repentance, faith, the things of this world) are just defined too far apart. We’re talking past each other because we’re using the same words, but the definitions of those words are loaded very differently.
Moses, I just want to wish you well and continue to love and support your daughter. I think there will be (and already is) a lot of criticism against her and the whole group in the coming days. So she’ll need your support. Keep following Jesus as well as you know how, and I’ll do the same. I don’t want to speak for anyone else here. That’s just how I feel about this whole debate.
Dear Thinking Human Being, The following verses will help you to think properly:
Tomans 12:1-3 (NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. DO NOT CONFORM TO THE PATTERN OF THIS WORLD, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. LIC, Moses.
Mr. David, I’m sure you must have prayed over the family member that received successful medical that saved her life. But you don’t mention whether you feel any guilt or lack of faith, let God down, that you also got her to an ER while you were praying. You didn’t let her die and then pray for God to restore her.
I have no doubt that you prayed again when she underwent procedures. But you did not withhold effective reasonable treatment that saved her from death in order to show fealty to a wrathful God.
• Prayerfulness, thanking God, and good medical care is not mutually exclusive. It is not one at the expense of the other.
I too, pray that you get the clarity you need to help you think properly.
If you were to explain your methods for creating antimicrobial surfaces on plastic material to a fellow scientist with the same expertise and training as yourself or presented at a science conference and got peer review that was completely contradictory and made no sense, you’d be perplexed. If the other scientists refused to comprehend what you explained and continued to insist that your science is wrong and wanted you to do it some other way that you KNEW would fail, you’d get annoyed and wonder what they were about. You would doubt their training, think they were being deliberately obtuse and wonder at their foolishness.
I don’t believe it’s my place to “test and approve what God’s will is.” I don’t believe Sean Morris, Jake Gardner and Ryan Ringnald are “the people of God, exempt from worldly standards.” And I feel dreadfully sorry that you feel you must “repent” for loving your daughter and being concerned for her well-being.
Regardless of whether I agree, thank you for sharing your thoughts here.
CHURCH OF WELLS STATEMENT ABOUT BABY FAITH:
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/open-response-to-matt-slick-from-carm.html
Death of Baby:
“However, it is a concern when medical treatment is not sought for a very young child who is obviously having breathing difficulties. If prayer does not quickly alleviate the problem, then the other God-ordained means of healing via medical attention should be utilized. The apostle Luke, after all, was a physician and Paul himself even said take a little wine for one’s infirmities, (1 Timothy 5:23). So, seeking medical attention is biblical.”
There was red-ish purple-ish color in the baby’s extremities, yes, but this was not apparently different than other newborn babies that we have seen. In fact, the mother of the child that died affirmed that her former baby boy, named Levi, had colorful extremities and difficulty breathing, and this information foremost of all did give much reason to think that the child was NOT in any real danger. The Church of Wells does believe in using medical attention, and we are grateful for all beloved physicians out there who can be compared to Luke. Indeed, seeking medical attention is biblical.
An unavoidable difference between previous babies and Faith – the other babies had routine medical attention and were not delivered in isolation. Their births were not biblical spiritual events staged and supervised by unrelated young adult men, wrathful wannabe reincarnations of the apostle Paul.
“Colorful extremities?” Really? Seriously?
Moses, it would be nice if you would engage with us with your own thoughts, rather than just quoting the “elders” of the Church of Wells and the Bible. I would guess that many here are more familiar or as familiar with the Bible as you are.
Please, I implore you to think about what you are saying, and try to see the contradictions you are asking us to believe. If the Bible truly is the Word of God, we don’t need to hide behind the statements of others and circular reasoning, as you so often do!
When the Bible tells you “not to conform to the pattern of this world,” do you take that to mean not to eat food, since that is part of the pattern of this world? Of course not! In the same way, just because the world goes to doctors when a baby is in obvious distress doesn’t mean Christians should not. Any time ANYONE has trouble breathing, that is the time to call 911 or go to the emergency room.
Dear Jasnah, My thoughts, or anyone else’s thoughts concerning the events surrounding baby Faith’s death don’t mean much when compared to the people who were actually present with the baby. As the Church of Wells people explained, they thought that the seriousness was similar to other babies that they have seen recover without any problem. I commend them for resorting to concerted prayer and will not judge them for not seeing the need for medical care. I have met the parents of this baby, and know them to be very responsible and loving people, it is cruel to inflict sorrow upon their sorrow by the cruel, unrighteous judgment. If you want to judge, you should judge the many false churches that are preaching the false gospel, and giving people a false assurance of salvation, and condemning people to hell through deceit. We have seen that most of the children who have grown up in the false churches, and given a false assurance of salvation in their younger years because they raised their hand to “ask Jesus into their hearts,” in the final minutes after entertaining them through magic shows, carnivals, etc. forsake their faith, and become apostate within the first six months after leaving from home to go to college. If you want to judge churches, go ahead and judge the elders and members of those churches…there are literally hundreds from any one of these false churches that have been forsaken, beaten, and torn apart. The leaders from these churches will one day stand before Almighty God, The Righteous Judge, and give an account of their actions. LIC, Moses.
I’ll disagree. Everyone’s thoughts about Faith’s unnecessary death are appropriate and entirely relevant.
Dear Thinking Human Being, Antimicrobial surfaces have some value to prevent physical disease for this life, but we have a much more serious problem of the disease of false christianity, which will send hundreds of people from individual churches to the bottomless pit, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, with no one to care for them. If you want to put on your thinking hat, the compelling, most important problem to solve is the problem of sin and its consequences, and that is why I have been suggesting to follow the pattern of Romans 12:1,2. We do not face a battle in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm. Many children and youth are “asking Jesus into their hearts” in magic shows, carnivals, youth retreats, music concerts, etc. without understanding the life and death issues concerning the righteous Christian life, and the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you really want to think, think how you can confront the complacent leaders who are promoting this and living in this world consumed by the indulgences of this world as the rest of the people who do not have the saving knowledge of Christ. Come alongside them, and help them, so that they will not be condemned on the judgment day. LIC, Moses.
You completely side-step and avoid the point. Doesn’t change it.
Please, Dear Thinking Human Being, I was just thinking that you should think and remember your name, and think about being bold, and strong, and courageous, to think and share it with me. I think I am thinking right to know who you are, but I think I will let you think to share it with me without further thinking. By the way, I did not repent of loving my daughter, or about protecting my daughter, but I repented about not trusting in God’s call in my daughter’s life, for treating her harshly, and about unrighteously judging the Church of Wells people without making an effort to understand and know them. I hope the veil will be lifted from your eyes to see that these people are faithfully following the Word of Truth, even though they appear extreme when compared to the false christians of today. LIC, Moses
Moses wrote: “I hope the veil will be lifted from your eyes to see that these people are faithfully following the Word of Truth, even though they appear extreme when compared to the false christians of today.”
You call promoting a works/obedience-based salvation “faithfully following the Word of Truth?” As stated several times, but also apparently falling on deaf ears, CoW is preaching an equivalent to the Galatian heresy, which Paul labeled “another gospel.” Anytime a Christian bases his continuance in the faith upon “his” faithfulness, he has just made his salvation conditional upon “faith + works,” which contradicts Gal. 3:3 (“Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”).
Then there’s Gal. 5:7-10… “You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.”
I would venture to say that, because of this false gospel being preached by the CoW leadership, it would fall into Paul’s description of “the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment…” and the one “who hindered you from obeying the truth.”
While I certainly share your concern for the “modern” gospel being preached from so many pulpits, the emphasis on “decisionism,” the false conversions, etc., to return true, biblical Christianity to the Catholicism it denounced in the Reformation can never be a wise, biblical approach. No, the biblical view of the post-conversion man is found in Ezekiel 36:25-26. There we find our solution to unregenerate man’s heart, dirty slate and unholy lifestyle problems: regeneration (v. 26), justification (v. 25) and sanctification (v. 27). In other words, when a person has a new heart, he becomes a new creature with new desires to please the God who enlivened and adopted him. And the first desire he’ll have is to obey – almost simultaneously – Christ’s command to repent and believe the gospel, resulting in his justification (2 Cor. 5:21). Finally, upon receiving the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), he will have the power to live out the new desires coming from his new heart. And he will live them out! That’s why we can say with James that “Faith without works is dead;” and we don’t have to put the Roman Catholic interpretative spin on it either!
Moses wrote: “I would like to urge you to humble yourself before God to study the Bible without using the lens of man-made doctrine.”
I couldn’t agree with you more Moses; however, the problem here is, that is exactly what the Church of Wells does. They study the Bible using the lens of a man-made doctrine. Sean Morris writes a doctrine called the Doctrine of Judgement and the church members follow it as they would scripture. I would even go so far as to say it replaces scripture. Scripture is taken out of context and twisted to get them to believe they must judge and condemn and even dishonor their families and parents. I have never seen such deplorable behavior as is in their testimonies against their families. They speak of slander against them when all they do is slander their families and past friends. Sean even came up with a numbering system of judgement. Do you think that was God ordained? No it wasn’t yet they stick to it. Men who have degrees in Theology have cut apart Sean’s Condescension of God and found him to have confused justification and sanctification. Who do you think might be more apt to have it right? A 27 year old kid who didn’t go to seminary or a Bible scholar? And yet the sheep blindly follow all the while committing grievous sins against God, their parents and even children who were left behind. Who is looking at the scripture through the lens of a man-made doctrine? The Church of Wells!
Moses says “Dear All, I do not want to argue with you folks, but I would like to urge you to humble yourself before God to study the Bible without using the lens of man-made doctrine. All Scripture is “God-Breathed,” with the power to give you life in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Do not perish by taking a position of convenience to support sin, or to love the things of this world which are perishing. The world and its desires will pass away, but only the one who does the will of God will live. The only way to do the will of God is to have His Holy Spirit, given to everyone who repents and puts his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and to submit to God’s Holy Spirit on a moment-by-moment basis. Watch and pray so you will not fall into temptation, abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ, stand fast in faith, fear God and shun evil, persevere under trial, return to the first love in God, strive to enter through the narrow gate, resist the devil, set your mind fully on the hope to be revealed when Jesus Christ returns in the clouds to gather those that are IN Christ, those whose lives have been built upon the Cornerstone of Jesus Christ. Every thing else is vain! LIC, Moses.”
Well, I have humbled myself before God, studied the bible without using the lens of man-made doctrine. I am not putting myself in the position of perishing by taking a position of convenience to support sin. I do not love the things of this world, which ARE perishing. I agree that the world and its desires WILL pass away and that the one who does the will of God will live. I agree that the only way to do the will of God is to have His Holy Spirit, and I do! I have repented. I do so daily, sometimes, hourly or even more frequently than that, if the Holy Spirit calls something to mind. My faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ. I submit to God’s Holy Spirit on a moment by moment basis. I watch and pray and try not to fall into temptation and the good Lord has delivered me from temptation. I abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ and stand fast in the faith. I fear God. I shun evil. I persevere under trial. I haven’t departed from the first love of God and continually pursue Him. I understand what it means to enter through the narrow gate. I resist the devil. I fully set my mind on things above and look forward to the Lord’s return in the clouds. I am IN Christ and I have built my house upon the ROCK…the Cornerstone of Jesus Christ. I agree, Moses, everything else is in vain. Oh….and I DO have a holy, reverent FEAR of the Lord.
And you know what? It still isn’t good enough for CoW. They still say I am not saved. They don’t even know me and they say that. They know nothing about the depth of my love for Jesus Christ and they are NOT my judge. The One. The ONE on the throne. He is my judge. I’m not stupid. I understand my depravity. I take it quite seriously. They are no better than I am. They are AS depraved. As much a sinner. You too. You are a sinner. As much a sinner as I am. And yet, you are welcomed in their fold? Why is that. Please….if you will….answer this question if none other.
Moses, this thread of commentary is EIGHTY something comments long. Why do you think that is?
Moses…..I am going to commit to praying for you. I actually have a great deal of compassion in my heart for you. I believe you are in Christ.
TruthBe Told: I love your reply. Yes they have been gone for a while and they don’t know us, yet continue to judge our hearts. Moses: It seems as though you fear COW more than you fear the Lord. The Lord our God is THE only one who can judge our hearts. Not Sean Morris, no “elder” of COW or you for that matter. I am praying for you as well Moses. I refuse to sell out and support them, knowing what they stand for just to have a relationship with my loved one there. I hope the Lord convicts you of the same.
It’s not my intention to argue either. It’s very simple and clear to me. I always allow for the possibility that I’m wrong, misunderstand, etc. In this case, I feel very strongly but only because I’ve looked at it long and hard.
It’s one thing when a person holds convictions so strongly that they consciously make a choice to take it all the way to death and go to prison, rather than capitulate what they believe in. That’s courageous and admirable in a bleak way. That’s Gandhi. One wants to respect that even while condemning behaviour.
It’s another thing altogether to defy law of the land and then avoid accountability for the decision. To genuinely expect impunity.
On the one hand, in the time after the baby’s death, Sean Morris was pretty clear about it. He seemed to be saying that they had faith in God and that God heals. That he/they have “powers” and “gifts” of the spirit (a reasonable assumption is that he means the power to heal).
“What we’re against is putting any of those things [hospitals, the medical field] supremely over Christ, not giving him his place as God to heal, or to submit to the leadership of the Holy Ghost.”
That’s. what. he. said. One can hear his thoughts expressed quite honestly in his sermon. These are his words in his voice. http://www.thechurchofwells.com/files/theme/Faith%20Pursley%20Memorial%20Sermon%20060112.mp3
On the other hand, later on (and now, with Moses David) it seemed to transition to a question of whether or not they knew the baby was sick. But I have yet to hear the plain simple statement that they WOULD have sought medical care had they realized the baby would die. In fact, I believe they are actually honest in not making that statement. That whatever the outcome was, they were reconciled to it as ‘God’s Will and inevitable, whether they demonstrated the proper degree of faith or not. I see no distinction or qualification in their definition of ‘healing’, in the continuum from birth of the infant, to sick baby, to death, to a post-mortem state.
“As to the charge that we sinned as elders or as a church, when that child died, we believed that it was God’s will to raise her. We don’t think that was a presumptuous thing. We’ve seen many miracles as a church and as individuals: demons cast out, healings. We weren’t just being foolish; we wanted God to be glorified.”
You just can’t have it both ways. Either they fully believe in what they did and are convinced of their own righteousness. Or they made a mistake. One or the other.
I think Mr. Moses is more sure they didn’t mean it, than they are!
And there are some grey areas that flesh out the story and tend to lend clarity in one direction or another. If we knew what those little details were for certain. For example, the possibility that the mother was blamed for the baby’s death. That SHE didn’t have faith and thereby screwed up the Elders’ mojo.
Another critical detail is the science of the thing. The baby was dehydrated. She didn’t nurse. That’s a routine identifiable wrinkle in normal breast-feeding of normal infants with no medical complications. A routine part of standard post-partum care by nurses, midwives and doctors. New parents are advised on what to watch for and be alarmed by. What to seek medical help for. There has to be intervention or a newborn will die.
The bottom line –
This is the United States and the 21st century. The law of the land – our collective society’s national and municipal codes and statutory directives – say we cannot do such a thing. We know we will be held responsible, intentional or not. That’s the law.
If worship leaders find law of the land incompatible with spiritual beliefs, the option is to find a country with mutually-acceptable customs and laws.
Dear Thinking Human Being, The sheep are dehydrated, abandoned, struck-down, cast down to the pit, while the leaders are consumed by the indulgences of this world and subscribing to man-made doctrines that give security in the midst of sin and damnation resulting from false Christianity. God will hold every person responsible for the sins of commission and omission, regardless of their secure position, thinking, or not. LIC, Moses.
Moses,
How do you and the Church of Wells determine a decision to seek medical attention for physical distress, injury, or illness is based on “worldly wisdom”? Is each situation judged the same or is the criteria for seeking medical treatment different for each situation? Does it depend on the individual who is in distress, injured, or ill? Who ultimately makes the decision? What about for a legal adult? Do they make the decision solely for themselves? Must the decision be approved by the elders to ensure medical attention is not being based on “worldly wisdom”? Specifically, in light of Baby Faith not feeding or thriving, why would getting medical attention for her have been “worldly wisdom”? Thank you for helping me understand.
Dear Moses David – The baby Faith Pursley was dehydrated, abandoned, struck-down, cast down to the pit, while the leaders were consumed by the indulgences of this world and subscribing to doctrines of their own making.
Yes, this matter was and is “of this world.” Man-made. On the planet Earth. It happened.
It’s clear that you subscribe to the same doctrines. That’s your choice. I don’t condemn you for that. You’re entitled.
Not one thing I’ve said was meant to be an argument of theology or to debate your spiritual beliefs and expression of philosophy, Mr. David. It was intended to offer rational explanation for why it’s anathema for a baby to die for religious beliefs. There is no expectation that you be convinced of anything or agree, but just to follow and understand.
I judge and condemn a group of young American men for causing the death of a baby. I believe that having gotten away with it, they’ll continue this kind of behaviour.
You people have heroized yourselves as demi-gods. You require edification and approbation. Good luck with that.
Moses David,…” God will hold every person responsible for the sins of commission and omission.” If this is so…then why are the leaders of Church of Wells passing judgment on others? It is God and only God who holds accountability. God also is forgiving and merciful. He does not judge people the way the leaders of CoW self-righteously are judging others, or you for that matter. It seems they have you as blindsided and indoctrinated as your daughter. You can not hold a conversation with any of the people who are trying to converse with you without making this a theological argument. That is what all of your preachings and that of the elders are “arguments.” You fight, argue, condemn and blasphemy God and all of his children (that includes every person who has written on this post). it is offensive to think, much less exclaim that God is judgmental and will allow “anyone” to burn in a pit of fire.” My God is all knowing, all- loving and all forgiving. I can not say that about the Church of Wells who continuously look to defend their actions by way of false proselytizing. All they do is stroke their own enormous egos and use God’s name In vain. If anyone is to be judged…it will be them. Not the families or loved ones of the innocent young people led into the Church of Wells that is..in every shape and form..a religious sect. If we are truly seeking honesty…what is the motivation of the Church elders? To “SAVE” others? Who are they to say that anyone needs salvation in the form of them? All they have done is manipulate and controlled the innocent minds of others and in the future…they will have much more to answer to than the death of a newborn. Moses David, if you love your daughter and truly care for her safety and well-being..you would not be defending these men..you would be fearing them and looking to save your own child from what is happening to her emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually.
Dear Brother Moses. I know the group in Wells personally. Based on my experience with them, I appeal to you as an older brother to please consider the following scriptures:
THIS DESCRIBES WHAT IS HAPPENING IN WELLS:
3 John 1:9-10
“I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes (Sean Morris), who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.”
THIS DESCRIBES HOW WE SHOULD VIEW THEM BASED ON THEIR ACTIONS:
2 Corinthians 10:12
“Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.”
THIS DESCRIBES HOW WE SHOULD PERSONALLY APPROACH THE SITUATION:
1 Timothy 5:22
“Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.”
Moses, do these scriptures have any bearing on what is happening in Wells in your opinion?
– For Christ and His Gospel
A very good use of applicable scripture, Richard.
What bothers me the most is that these folks, even giving them the benefit of the doubt intention-wise, think they must completely separate themselves from the world and anyone who does not meet their self-imposed standards. How, then, do they expect to be able to run their businesses, pay their bills, influence others gently, or even see their doctors?
We are supposed to believe that they were willing and able to see a doctor for the sake of the young child, Faith.
But how can that be so if they regularly separate themselves from any contact with those they determine to be “unsaved”? And, I must assume that most medical practitioners would be anathema to faith since they promote and make their living based on material things.
What they have done is make a mockery of true faith and instead of bringing glory to God, they have brought reproach upon the very idea that there is a God for those who do not believe. I am not saying they are intentionally going against God’s will in this, but what has resulted from their imposition of requiring much faith from others is an argument that their own faith is useless and powerless.
We are to be encouraged by each others faith, not discouraged or disappointed by a lack of it (Romans 1:12). Each believer is given a different measure of faith, not by their own power or effort, but through God’s grace. None of us is to think ourselves better than another believer because we seem to have more faith than they do (Romans 12:3-6, Romans 14:1, 22).
Love is the primary gift we must exercise and develop, not just greater faith. Faith grows as our understanding of God’s love and grace grows through our practice of the same toward others. Shunning people who do not agree with you, or do not meet your* standards, is not a scriptural way to win them over. We are to be “with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel”, that faith being about the gospel that ultimately saves people from death and sin. Faith and love are bound up together and neither can exist without the other.
Keep in mind also, “These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.” (Hebrews 11:13) Our faith does not preempt God’s will for us. While the promise is, “Whatsoever you ask in my name, believing, you shall receive” it may not come in the way we expect or in the time frame that we desire. To not seek medical help for a child, or at least pre/post-natal advice comes dangerously close to falling into deadly condemnation (1 Timothy 5:8).
“What they have done is make a mockery of true faith and instead of bringing glory to God,” they are doing everything they can to bring glory to themselves.
Dear All, Please consider the following Scripture:
Galatians 6:11-17 (NIV)
SEE WHAT LARGE LETTERS I USE AS I WRITE TO YOU WITH MY OWN HAND!
Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
Moses, could you please elaborate as to what you are pointing us to this Scripture for? I don’t understand. Also, do you think the Scripture in 3 John regarding Diotrophes accurately describes the Church of Wells?
Richard
Dear Richard, Please pray and see how people are trying to impress the others in the flesh by requiring conformance to worldy standards, and to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Regarding the 3 John passage, they did welcome us in the Name of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met Sean Morris personally? He is not like Diotrophes, but a tender, loving and bold man of God. They love the believers and pray for them, even if you are unable to see it. LIC, Moses.
Thank you for the reply Moses. Yes, I have met Sean, and it was a different story than your experience. I’d love to speak with you about it further if you are interested. He and the rest of the group were harsh, arrogant, evasive, and “cast us out” as false brothers before even knowing us. That may sound strange, but it is true and can be confirmed.
And Moses, you too personally know brothers that they have wrongfully labeled “apostate”, “false-prophets”, “reprobates”, etc. You and I have more mutual brothers and sisters in Texas than you realize. I don’t want to name names on a public forum though. You know that they have “refused to welcome the brothers” on many occasions. I am one of those brothers, and I know several others that you are personally acquainted with. You must be honest with yourself Moses. For Christ’s sake, and the sake of the Truth!
Just because Sean welcomed you in “love” doesn’t say anything about how he treats others.
And Moses, While I am glad that you had a pleasant experience in Wells, many of God’s children have not. You know this. And unless you are willing to say that those you once called brothers are actually now apostate or unbelievers, you must admit that John 3 is accurate to the situation. Have you too changed your mind about people you once proclaimed to be saved? If hope not, but If so, I fear you have been deceived.
In Christ, Richard
Dear Richard, They use strong words for reproof and rebuke for things considered as normal by many other worldly christians. If they indeed rebuked you for any reason, I would prayerfully consider if this is true about you. Believe me, they are doing this out of love for you, and this is true about many others that I know about also, even those that I love dearly, and do not personally see the sin in the way that they do. I am praying for God to bring to my attention if there is sin on either side. I know that I was sinful when I wrongfully accused them before understanding and knowing them. We all have a tendency to be with people that accept and commend us, even as we hide our sin from others. The rebuke of righteous men is good for us, so that we can depart from our iniquity and find favor with God. Even in your labeling of Sean Morris as Diotrophes, I hope, Richard, that you are not calling him this because he rebuked and pointed sin in yourself. If this is true, then it is a very grievous sin, to malign someone because you do not want to deal with your own sin? Love in Christ, Moses.
Psalm 141:5 (NIV)
Let a righteous man strike me—that is a kindness;
let him rebuke me—that is oil on my head.
My head will not refuse it,
for my prayer will still be against the deeds of evildoers.
Moses, thank you for your thoughtful response. In response to your statement:
“Dear Richard, They use strong words for reproof and rebuke for things considered as normal by many other worldly christians. If they indeed rebuked you for any reason, I would prayerfully consider if this is true about you.”
To all: I will be forthright in what the situation was to clear up any thoughts of “sin”. In short, I and my family were kicked out of our friend’s wedding by Sean himself, and I was labeled as a “false prophet”. Our dear friend of many years did not ask us to leave the wedding…Sean did. The leaders even threatened to call the police if we stayed any longer. Neither Sean nor I had met each other in the past, and knew almost nothing about each other up to this point. So what was my “sin” that caused such a violent reaction? What could Sean have seen in my life that was so “sinful” that he would label me a “false prophet”, cast our entire family out of the wedding, and make sure the others cast us out as well? …I opposed the arranged marriage of our friend.
No, I did not get angry, violent, loud, or disruptive. In fact, I did not speak at all for any to hear (other than the one to be married). I WHISPERED my opposition in the ear.
So again, what was my “sin” in Sean’s opinion? I opposed a wedding that he and the elders had arranged. This is a fact. This is not disputable.
I’ve got to get going, but this has been a mutually beneficial conversation in my opinion. Moses, thanks for the conversation. I hope we can meet one day and rejoice in what the Lord has done.
Signing off,
Richard
Richard, would you be willing to share your email so we could communicate?
This from the ever-quotable Michael Svigel: “We probably ought to spend more time picking our own weeds than inspecting other believers’ fruits.”
Dear Steve, This is especially true in your case for writing about the Church of Wells before even making an attempt to know them, particularly about baby Faith without being there with them during the sorrowful loss of their baby. LIC, Moses.
Dear Moses,
About this too, we disagree. But I appreciate your forthrightness.
Blessings, Steve
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Liberty for Captives wrote:
>
Dear Richard, As the elders explained, they do not arrange any marriages, but they are suggested sometimes and prayed upon by the whole church, and certainly no marriage is held without the partners themselves wanting to get married according to God’s will. I do not know the circumstances in which you were made to leave the wedding of your friend (how are they doing now?), and it would be unrighteous to judge them by hearing only one side of the story. I will ask them the next time I meet them. For my daughter’s wedding, there were a few people who were not pleased with the wedding, but they came for the wedding to show their support of our daughter and they certainly were welcomed into the wedding. Love in Christ, Moses
The “saints” sacrificed a baby to see if they could work a miracle. Playing with faith and “God’s Will” to satisfy their own egotistical agenda and add “healer” to their credential: look what we did!
They didn’t see God’s hand in this. God kept that baby alive. She was born with a heart condition. She did not die before birth. She did not die during the stress of labor and delivery. She did not die, even without oxygen supplementation and medical intervention. The facts of the circumstances are proof of that. A sick baby that couldn’t nurse and needed medical attention survived three days. Now that’s a miracle. That is God working. God gave them a chance. How incredibly sad that they missed it.
That wasn’t enough for Sean Morris. He wanted more from God. For his own glory and plans. He rejected God’s blessing on the baby and her parents; asking that God let him heal the baby instead. God said ‘No’.
Instead of thanking God for His intervention and accepting His gift, the parents blew God off to worship and edify two high school sports stars, an artist, a guy who sells Christmas lights on the internet, and a shady younger guy who hides his background and origins.
Concerned Person
April 25, 2014 at 2:45 pm
“Richard, would you be willing to share your email so we could communicate?”
You can contact me here if you would like: tocontactmenow@gmail.com
Matthew 12:33-37 (NIV) “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Deuteronomy 5:16
LUKE 2:48-51 (NIV)
When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.” “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
LUKE 1:67-80 (NIV)
His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David
(as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
salvation from our enemies
and from the hand of all who hate us—
to show mercy to our ancestors
and to remember his holy covenant,
the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
and to enable us to serve him without fear
in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace.”
And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel
1 SAMUEL 2:1-11 (NIV)
Then Hannah prayed and said:
“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.
“There is no one holy like the Lord;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.
“Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the Lord is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed.
“The bows of the warriors are broken,
but those who stumbled are armed with strength.
Those who were full hire themselves out for food,
but those who were hungry are hungry no more.
She who was barren has borne seven children,
but she who has had many sons pines away.
“The Lord brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.
The Lord sends poverty and wealth;
he humbles and he exalts.
He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes
and has them inherit a throne of honor.
“For the foundations of the earth are the Lord’s;
on them he has set the world.
He will guard the feet of his faithful servants,
but the wicked will be silenced in the place of darkness.
“It is not by strength that one prevails;
those who oppose the Lord will be broken.
The Most High will thunder from heaven;
the Lord will judge the ends of the earth.
“He will give strength to his king
and exalt the horn of his anointed.”
Then Elkanah went home to Ramah, but the boy ministered before the Lord under Eli the priest.
Mr. David and the Texas Boys rote memorization of 31,000+ Bible verses is impressive. They win.
Proverbs 15
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
The tongue of the wise adorns knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.
The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
The soothing tongue is a tree of life, but a perverse tongue crushes the spirit.
2 Timothy 2:5
An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
King James Version: And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Ecclesiastes 2:22-26
What has a man from all the toil and striving of heart with which he toils beneath the sun? For all his days are full of sorrow, and his work is a vexation. Even in the night his heart does not rest. This also is vanity. There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God, for apart from him who can eat or who can have enjoyment? For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
RULES OF A DIFFERENT NATURE 2 Timothy 2:3-7 (NIV) Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. Similarly, anyone who competes as an athlete does not receive the victor’s crown except by competing according to the rules. The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.
This comment section is beginning to take the appearance of a Scriptural game of paper, rock, scissors. 🙂 I understand why we are using the Scriptures, but maybe we should all step back and make sure we aren’t playing a child’s game with God’s Word. Just a thought…
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF AN ELDER at THE CHURCH OF WELLS:
(shared by my dear daughter, an account of the previous day, a typical one!)
-many hours of prayer alone
-many hours later, phone call from wife received by elder, in the house of a family from the church, a child in need of prayer, family needs encouragement.
-wife offers to pick up elder from family’s house later
-wife receives phone call from elder, no need to pick up at this time
-elder spends several hours in another elder’s home, on the phone together -encouraging a church member visiting another country, desiring fellowship
-elder returns home in the middle of the night
-elder says he needs to pray, spends time in prayer, goes to bed finally at 3 am
-elder wakes up next morning, refreshed and ready for next day’s labor
BLESSED HEBREW FREEDOM FROM EGYPTIAN SLAVERY!
http://www.thechurchofwells.com/2/post/2014/02/hebrew-freedom-and-egyptian-slavery-an-allegory.html#comments
Thanks for that, Mr. David. You are an Elder of your own church (and an appropriate age and life experience, maybe). I wonder, do your days look like that?
Dear ATHB, God is teaching me to look to Him, to depend upon Him, to be purged of every sin by the power of His Holy Spirit, to learn prayerful dependence, and to value the call to serve Him a higher priority than anything else. My days are very different because of a secular job and my responsibilities are nowhere near those of the elders at the church of wells. I am blessed to know that there are true elders who care for the sheep through prayerful dependence upon God, and for whom the call to serve Him and to love those in their care supersede everything else. They are an inspiration to me, and I pray that I can have a high view of God like them! LIC, Moses.
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF A MEMBER at THE CHURCH OF WELLS:
(shared through a compilation of several members and ex members, an account of a typical day)
– Wake up to the unrelenting pressure to “conform” to the group expectations and standards.
– After morning prayers and Bible reading, head out to see what work the Spirit may lead to today.
– Meet a stranger on the road and take a divine opportunity. Proceed to preach very strongly to a “self-proclaimed Christian,” condemning them to hell within minutes of meeting them. They obviously weren’t saved…couldn’t be. Immediately saw “a different spirit” in them.
– Feeling very zealous for speaking so “truthfully in love” to this lost soul.
– Walking home, feel a twinge of guilt… Push down any feelings of a guilty conscience, or Holy Spirit conviction about these actions. Figuring that it must just be a “temptation” or “weak moment”.
– Get back home and compare oneself with the others in the group…now feeling pretty good about things again.
– Get a phone call from an old “Christian acquaintance”…a former pastor. Consider answering, but don’t. A reprobate can not be trusted, nor fellowshipped with.
– Getting late in the day, but have to get to a meeting with a “seeking sinner” that evening.
– Go to “seeking sinner’s” residence with bible in hand, ready to do the Lord’s work.
– The “seeking sinner” proclaims that he finally feels faith rising up in his heart…after many months of “seeking the Lord” in Wells, asks you to “preach faith” to him.
– Knowing that this sinner surely hasn’t repented (at least not enough to convince the elders), proceed to preach hell, condemnation, and dire warnings of judgement. This man isn’t ready to hear “faith that saves”, he needs to hear he is lost, a sinner, going to hell.
– Continue to preach harshly to this man of how wretched he is in God’s sight. Warn him one-on-one for at least an hour, then leave him alone to contemplate his wretched condition. He’s obviously not ready to hear the good news……possibly never will be…..
– Get back home and settle into bed…thinking about the day’s labor….still struggling with feelings of guilt for preaching so harshly….dismiss it as more temptation. Think about the example of the elders and how they preach to people….now feeling better again.
– Go to sleep, unaware that many brothers and sisters outside of Wells are praying for you.., praying that you may “find rest for your souls, for HIS yoke is easy, and HIS burden is light.”
Dear Richard, If you are resisting the Holy Spirit in any way to take a bitter stance like this against the people of God, it is a grievious offence against God, and I plead with you to become right with God. When you say that the above account is a compilation including those of several members of the church, do you mean that they are presently members of this church? If so, you need to be more clear how many, and if possible identify them, otherwise, the claim is baseless….anyone can say anything! The feedback of the former members is valid, but we have to realize that this feedback is most likely biased against them….we do not know the exact circumstances in which they left the church, and we need to get the story from both sides before taking a stance, Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses, I could name names, but I fear that would do more harm than good…at least on a public forum. If you would like to be reminded of some facts privately, just let me know. I’d be glad to speak with you. You know the names, you know some of the people, and I believe you know the sort of actions I am speaking of. Remember the things you were told before you went to Wells?? Do you remember the things you believed before going to Wells? You have already made up your mind though it seems.
Here is an honest question from one brother to another Moses:
What would it take for you to believe the men in Wells have grievously sinned against God and fellow believers? Do you need to see it in action?
Would you like to take a trip down to Wells with me personally and see how they treat my family? I’ve been there, and I’ll go again if it would show you what sort of treatment they have for Christians that don’t agree 100% with the elders. Interested?
And lastly, you say, “The feedback of the former members is valid, but we have to realize that this feedback is most likely biased against them”. Why do you say this?? This seems to imply that you will side with Sean and the COW without regard for any one else’s experience with them. This is not right.
Your Brother,
Richard
Mr. David,
Since you say lack of insurance and the cost of medical care seemed to be deciding factors in not getting help for Faith, does this mean that your daughter will not receive prenatal care now that she has announced her pregnancy? Who makes the decision as to who gets that opportunity? Just kind of curious to see how you will justify this.
Dear ByHisGrace, Preethi is in the loving care of a prayerful husband, church and the Maker of the heavens and the earth. The Lord will provide, through medical care, or otherwise. LIC, Moses.
Philippians 4:6,7 (NIV) Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Moses David,
I hope and pray your daughter experiences an uncomplicated pregnancy and labor, and your grandchild is born without complications and never has trouble breathing. I am honestly scared for Preethi and the child if anything out of the ordinary happens.
I hope and pray that Sean has learned from the experience with baby Faith, and will act with more wisdom with his own wife and child. Perhaps this will be the wake up call he so desperately needs.
Nearly everyone else can see this, Moses David. Why can’t you? Is it really because you and the Church of Wells are the only one who really know God? Or is it possible, just possible, that you are wrong, and that you and your daughter have been sucked in by a group of master manipulators? Please, I beg you, consider it. It is not a “lack of faith” to stop believing in a HUMAN. It does not make you a bad person or say anything about your devotion to the God of the Bible if you reject the Church of Wells as unBiblical. Please do not let these “elders” tell you it does.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Recapping –
Two comments asking two questions in 86 words (minus polite addressment and names). Two responses of 200+ words (minus niceties and names) not answering the simple real questions. Accompanied by the de rigueur Bible verses.
• As the same brand of really really saved deeply-devout “true believer”, is this the same lifestyle he follows? (He posted a description of the elder’s day to illustrate his virtuous lifestyle commanded by God.)
Answer: No, because he has a job.
• Will his daughter get prenatal care and who will decide?
Answer: Her prayerful husband will decide.
Dear ATHB, The Bible does not portray a picture of a “really really saved” person. Either a person is on the narrow way unto life in Christ by abiding in His teachings and submitting to God’s Holy Spirit whom He gave as a deposit guaranteeing eternal life, or, the person is on the broad way unto destruction, following the ways of man and this world, consumed by the indulgences of this world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of the Father will be saved. Many will come to Him on that day saying they have done this and that for God, but He will simply tell them that they are evil doers, and that He does not know them. Faith in Jesus Christ includes faith in everything that He teaches, which includes the denying of self, to take up the cross, and to follow Him every day. The reason I shared the details about the elder’s day was not to say that I am in some way similarly passionate about serving God, but it was refreshing to see an “elder” carry out his responsibilities in the way Christ expects of him. Sadly, many so called elders of the churches today are consumed by the indulgences of this world, and their love has gone cold, and they behave just like the levite who crossed the road to the other side ignoring the injured person by giving an excuse, and when they see a true “Good Samaritan,” they start condemning him. God will hold every one of these hypocritical leaders accountable on the day of judgment for every sheep left abandoned to be killed by the wolf, and for saying that “all is well” when professing believers are in a damnable condition because of their idolatry with the world! These are the important matters to discuss….regarding prenatal care for Preethi, it will be provided as the Lord wills, in the way that will bring Him utmost glory….May Jesus Christ be praised! Moses.
Yes, understood.
“…it was refreshing to see an “elder” carry out his responsibilities in the way Christ expects of him. Sadly, many so called elders of the churches today are consumed by the indulgences of this world…they behave just like the levite who crossed the road to the other side ignoring the injured person by giving an excuse, and when they see a true “Good Samaritan,” they start condemning him.”
My question was about _you_, not him. You’re an elder in this same path and belief system. You have a job. Should you consider yourself to be consumed by the indulgences of this world, instead of carrying out your responsibilities? Or do you have a special dispensation because it’s an important job, or because of your educational level, or because you need the money, or something along those lines? How do you reconcile that, if it’s a rule or directive or requirement? Obviously you are not “reprobate” and “unrepentant” for having a job.
Dear Jasnah, I appreciate your concern, and it seems to be genuine. I do not claim to have superior intelligence, or wisdom than anyone else, but I simply trust in the Word of God and take it as it is. I will not join the multitudes in condemning the Church of Wells for simply following the Word of God, and God’s call seriously, and in the process offending many people who are either deceived by the doctrines of man, or want to live like the rest of the world. I do not consider the Church of Wells as perfect people, but I do not see where they are going wrong against the Word of God. I know many of you have the concern about honoring parents, but the Bible is very clear that if the family members come in the way of having one’s relationship right with God, we need to take sides, either with God, or with family. In many situations, the family is unable to reconcile with the extreme theology of this church, but the Christians of the early church were extreme as well, and were labeled as a cult. In the case of Preethi, we were extremely disappointed and worried when she left us to join the Church of Wells, but if God strongly convinced her to support and join this church based also on like-mindedness in the understanding of Scriptures, how could she have opposed God, just to remain united with us? But after our eyes were opened to the authenticity of this church, God gave us peace and great love for these saints, even though most of you seem to have been convinced by the lies, slander and misrepresentation about them in the media, and do not seem to want to recognize their authenticity. Nevertheless, I recognize that there are genuine believers who are reading this post, who have taken sides against the church, but I pray that God will open their eyes to the truth in His time. Love in Christ, Moses.
I am glad that you at least recognize that there are true Christians who can disagree so strongly with this church. That is more than the elders will do, according to their website.
Moses said ~ “Nevertheless, I recognize that there are genuine believers who are reading this post, who have taken sides against the church, but I pray that God will open their eyes to the truth in His time.”
Moses, when talking to my family member he/she told me that COW was THE remnant. All of the “saved Christians” will be coming from around the world to the remnant church. If they don’t they will fall into a reprobate state by associating with a false doctrine church. That was the answer I was given when asked why I can’t stay here if I am saved and why my family member cannot come home. How is it, Moses, that you are able to stay “saved” and not go to Wells or are you intending on moving there?
Moses said ~ ” I know many of you have the concern about honoring parents, but the Bible is very clear that if the family members come in the way of having one’s relationship right with God, we need to take sides, either with God, or with family.”
Ok Moses, I think most of us on here would agree that God comes first, that is definitely Biblical. However, what most people are struggling with is the fact that the people at Wells seem to interpret the commands to put God first, as meaning that you sell everything, LEAVE your family and isolate yourself by moving to Wells Texas in order to be right with God.
A couple of verses are in order for clarity ~
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”
Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Moses also said ~ “But after our eyes were opened to the authenticity of this church, God gave us peace and great love for these saints, even though most of you seem to have been convinced by the lies, slander and misrepresentation about them in the media, and do not seem to want to recognize their authenticity.”
It is not slander and misrepresentations that Catherine Grove has left all she owned including family and moved to Wells to be nearer God Moses. It is not slander that there is some influence from the leaders at Wells who are teaching her, to whatever degree, to stay away from her parents. It is not slander that almost half of the people in CoW are in bad relationships with their loved ones.
If you think people are picking on these guys for no reason then you are deceived Moses.
Lastly Moses said ~ “Nevertheless, I recognize that there are genuine believers who are reading this post, who have taken sides against the church, but I pray that God will open their eyes to the truth in His time.”
Well thank you so much for recognising that we are true Christians Moses, you mean that you acknowledge there are Christians outside of CoW ??
Why on earth are these young folk leaving all they possess including loved ones and moving to Wells if you know there are Christians elsewhere ?
We will think more of this group when Catherine visits and speaks to her parents without anyone from CoW in attendance, Until then, they will be rightfully looked at with suspicion.
With respect
Dear Dale, They don’t believe that they are the only church, but based on what they see in the Bible, they believe that most of the so-called churches are comprised of primarily false believers, but they believe that there are remnant true Christians everywhere, not just in their church. LIC, Moses.
Too much repetitive generalization in explanations. We’re not talking about “most of the so-called churches”; we’re talking specifics here. Real people, real circumstances, real questions. Not hypothetical.
Also repetitive and empirically meaningless: the “eyes opened” metaphor. What does that mean? Do you mean, “when we comprehended?”
“…the family is unable to reconcile with the extreme theology…” It isn’t the _family_ that can’t reconcile. It’s the men of the group won’t reconcile with the family members’ choice not to join in.
Specific to just you and your family, no one else that is apparent, no other family – they have reconciled that you didn’t join the group in Wells. They are accepting contact with you anyway. Why?
Before I say anything else, I want to thank Steve for putting up with all of this on his blog. To God be the glory….I’m sure he would agree, but thank you to Steve for his grace.
As I always tell guests at our home: the fridge is yours and there’s a bed downstairs. Just keep conversation to a dull roar so as not to wake the baby. As long as folks are having productive dialogue, this is a safe place. If folks get nasty I show them the door.
Sent from my iPhone
>
Dear Dale, If someone considers their church to be the real family, and sell their possessions to join them, what is the problem with that? Shouldn’t people have the freedom to do what they want with their possessions? If love for the other church members compels them to give everything to them, isn’t this a blessed thing? When the woman with the alabaster jar of perfume poured it all upon Jesus, the disciples thought that it was a waste, but Jesus said, “She has done a beautiful thing to me” Didn’t the New Testament church members share all their possessions? From what I hear, it is not as if the members are required to sell everything to give to others, but many of them end up doing that out of their love for the Lord and the other church members. The leadership has told me that it is their desire that every family act as an independent unit managing their household. It is by necessity that families welcome other church members into their houses because they are short of housing, but ideally they would like each family to live separately. Regarding Catherine, from what I know, she has the freedom to talk to her parents, Shouldn’t Catherine have the freedom to decide when she would like to meet her parents, rather than any of us? Many of us have been praying for this to happen in a peaceful, God honoring way. Regarding many parents who are separated from their children, I think the situation can improve greatly if the parents make an effort to understand their sons and daughters without requiring them to forsake God’s call in their lives. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses wrote: ” Regarding many parents who are separated from their children, I think the situation can improve greatly if the parents make an effort to understand their sons and daughters without requiring them to forsake God’s call in their lives.’
Moses, you are making the assumption that we as parents have not made the effort to understand our children. I cannot speak for everyone but the ones I am in contact have made every effort to communicate with and understand our loved ones there. We have even offered to discuss scripture via e mail but to no avail. It is dishonoring for our children not to contact us and at least ask us how we are doing. I have never told my child to come home.
Moses wrote: “If someone considers their church to be the real family, and sell their possessions to join them, what is the problem with that? Shouldn’t people have the freedom to do what they want with their possessions?”
I don’t think this is the issue at all. The issue is how MOST of them left. They left in the middle of the night telling no one. Our child didn’t even sell their possessions. They left them for us to deal with. Had they sat down with us and discussed the situation, saying that they had found a church family that they wanted to live with more than us, that would be their decision and we could do nothing about it as they are adults, but we would have accepted their decision because they would have left with integrity. They left their jobs without integrity, their family, even some children. That is unacceptable behavior. And it is very sad that after pouring 20+ years into their lives, some people they have never met in person would be considered their real family and influence them enough to leave like they did. A “real family” would never encourage that behavior.
“I think the situation can improve greatly if the parents make an effort to understand their sons and daughters without requiring them to forsake God’s call in their lives.”
Why does any son/daughter believe parents are requiring them to forsake God? Where does this come from? I won’t speak for parents and conversations that I can’t know, but I would suggest that no such ‘requirement’ was ever made to adult children. It’s just so unlikely.
Again, over-generalization. There’s a group of people from all over, different backgrounds, communication, socioeconomics, race. It isn’t even intelligent to imagine that all these parents said this to their children in this group.
Why use language that states that as fact, as if you know it to be true? Maybe temper that idea a bit and qualify it as your own thought or whomever’s. I would have to suppose that the group’s leadership is telling them that.
Someone told you that, Moses. You believe it. Even though good common sense and fairness tells me that you, yourself, probably did not communicate any such demand to your daughter. Why would you? And why would you believe any other parent has?
Consider this – each adult that has joined this group represents several other people. Look at your own family composition and the people that traveled a fair distance to attend your daughter’s wedding. Why did they bother? Because they love her. There is an attachment, affection, bond. Let’s say 6 people for each adult. For convenience, we’ll say there’s 50 people that abdicated lives to go to Wells. Those 50 people represent 300 real people. All generations and relationships. Children, too. It’s ludicrous to suggest that these 300 people demand they “forsake God’s call” and that’s what the problem is. It’s just not rational. It’s not true.
I think the situation would benefit from examining some of these rigid generalizations and seeing where they can be softened.
Dear ATHB, If we are surrounded by good Bible believing, and practicing churches, generalizations would be wrong, but you see, we live in a fallen world, with many people teaching and practicing false christianity, with no leadership committed to true service, discipleship and shepherding of their flock. Most of these leaders are more involved in the world, rather than in protecting the lives of the sheep under their care. Jesus made a generalization during His time, and the situation is a lot worse today. Just as Jesus condemned the false leaders of His time, He will do that once again at the time of His judgment. We all need to repent and return to the Captain of our salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ authentically, and without hypocrisy. Love in Christ, Moses.
Matthew 11:20-24 (NIV) Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Again, one more time, this issue, this conversation, this dialogue, is about specific people and specific families they have permanent membership in by birthright. Pre-existing to elective membership in a church.
Once again, this is not about churches, congregations, false Christianity, or the value of belief systems to society. To continue to address the human beings involved as if it were is disingenuous at a minimum, walking a very fine line with deceit.
Individuals in this group may come from places around the world. But this is not about the world’s churches. Most are American, but this is not about the American church experience.
Moses says: “It is difficult when the parents come completely against what they stand for, and against what God has called them to do.”
One more time – parents are NOT completely against what their children stand for. Parents are NOT against a calling from God. Neither are aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandparents, or any other loved one. This is simply not true.
• “Parents” didn’t tell adult children any such thing.
• Church of Wells leadership did not hear “parents” say this, in person, by telephone, or in writing.
• Since it’s the leadership of this church saying this, they must take responsibility for bearing false witness.
It’s not a truthful statement or a truthful premise.
Mr. David, the only other truthful possibility is that _you_ said this; that you were completely against what _your_ daughter’s calling from God and told her that. That this is _your_ truth. In which case you should say that; speak only for yourself and don’t project your experience on, or speak for, anyone else.
Dear Concerned Person, Sometimes the call of God is so compelling that the actions do not make any sense by human reasoning. When the disciples were called by Jesus, they left immediately, leaving behind their boats, nets, and everything. Matthew left his tax-collector’s job and followed Christ. I will be praying for you, that you will be reconciled with your children with peace in Christ, and that Christ will satisfy your every need according to the riches of His grace, as you seek to find your sufficiency in Him alone. The following words of Jesus give me comfort:
John 15:7-14 (NIV) If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
Love in Christ,
Moses
Moses,
Thank you for your reply. I have heard that same scriptures from my family there. I am over how they left. I have forgiven them even though they have not apologized. Whether or not they were compelled to leave and told by God or not, the fact that we told them we were hurt by their actions, should have brought on an apology. What I am still surprised at is the lack of communication and/or care and concern for the family they left behind. They may say they “weep for us” but we don’t have any contact with them so we are weeping. There have been instances of gifts being returned with hateful notes. Families have been slammed in COW testimonies and posted on the internet. I have never heard a testimony of how someone was saved that included slamming their family. This is all very hurtful. It is not about God’s call for them, how they left, etc. It is about how is a “saved” Christian going to treat the family God gave them.
Dear Concerned Person, If you looked at your interactions with them sincerely as God would examine you, is there anything that you have done to them for which you need to ask them for forgiveness? Please pray about it, and see how you could become right with God in this area. I do not know the details about your life, or your interactions with your children, but please consider what I saying with humility before God. Should God move you to reveal an offense against them, the appropriate, Godly, courageous thing to do would be, to ask them to forgive you. True reconciliation and Godly peace cannot come without setting our hearts right before God. This world offers false peace with broken hearts, but this would accomplish nothing. Love in Christ, Moses.
Has anyone else noticed how Moses’ English has improved significantly during our conversation with him ? hmm….
Moses (or possibly Jake) said ~ ” If love for the other church members compels them to give everything to them, isn’t this a blessed thing? When the woman with the alabaster jar of perfume poured it all upon Jesus, the disciples thought that it was a waste, but Jesus said, “She has done a beautiful thing to me”
Another wonderful example of Scripture twisting that even the JW’s and Mormons would be proud of. The difference here my friend is that Jesus Christ is God and the CoW leaders are NOT!
Moses ~ “Didn’t the New Testament church members share all their possessions?”
They sure did, but they did not isolate themselves from the rest of society and alienate themselves from family as the CoW are. Nowhere in the history of the Church can you find that sort of behaviour except in cults, think David Koresh, Jim Jones etc….Now do you see why people are criticizing them ?
Moses ~ ” Regarding Catherine, from what I know, she has the freedom to talk to her parents, Shouldn’t Catherine have the freedom to decide when she would like to meet her parents, rather than any of us?”
You see, the problem we have here is that there is no one in your group telling Catherine that she SHOULD see her parents, which is right and proper, instead what is happening is that in your little group, your holy huddle, you are praising people for “cutting ties with loved ones” and twisting Scripture to support this, hence almost half of the people in CoW are in bad relationships with close family.
So, you have on one hand the leaders of the CoW saying to the watching world “Catherine does not want to see her parents, it is nothing to do with us” and then in their meetings the leaders are teaching them this is a good thing that you keep away from parents.
And unless Catherine goes and spends time with her family (alone) soon, the CoW will continue to be looked at with suspicion and rightfully considered a cult.Jesus did not say His people will be known by their “words,” but by their fruit and the very fact that sons and daughters are encouraged to stay away from family is bad fruit.
Luke 6:43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit.
So, enough of the words Jake, Sean and Ryan people need to see action, then you will be more accepted by the Christians in America and beyond, after all, you do recognise there are Christians elsewhere who do not agree with your teachings ….right?
Lastly Moses said ~ “Regarding many parents who are separated from their children, I think the situation can improve greatly if the parents make an effort to understand their sons and daughters without requiring them to forsake God’s call in their lives.”
You see,no parent with an ounce of common or Biblical sense can accept that it is God’s will for their loved one to alienate themselves from them and very publically criticize them on the internet. That sort of behaviour is from the pit of hell, not from the God of the Bible.
Moses don’t just take my word for it here are men of God who have proven themselves saying similar things ~
http://www.thechurchofwells.org/statements-concerning-church-wells/
Sorry for long reply folks.
With respect
Dear Dale, Why would the righteous act of sacrificial giving out of love be Scripture twisting? Jesus said that the woman did a “beautiful thing” I have personally been blessed by teachings about sacrificial giving from God’s Word. Bad examples from the world don’t negate good examples from the Bible for God’s people. I have told Catherine that it would be a blessed, God-honoring thing to establish Godly peace with her parents, and I know other people from the church who have been praying for this, and encouraging Catherine as well. I don’t think it is Catherine’s desire to dishonor her parents, but she is praying with burden for them and hoping for Godly reconciliation. It is difficult when the parents come completely against what they stand for, and against what God has called them to do. LIC, Moses.
Moses ~ I was referring to your equating the woman and the alabaster jar anointing Jesus before His crucifixion, to the people in CoW giving their money to the leaders in this group. It appears your theology is as bad as the leaders, little wonder you are defending their error.
Again, your words that ” I have told Catherine” also “and I know other people from the church who have been praying for this, and encouraging Catherine as well” remain empty until we see action, until Catherine is seen by her parents alone, you and they remain in error and your words are meaningless.
Moses said ~ “It is difficult when the parents come completely against what they stand for, and against what God has called them to do.”
What makes it difficult is when the people teaching Catherine are instructing her and everyone else that cutting ties with family is a “good thing” (see Sean’s writings)
Perhaps these parents that are so vilified by these leaders can see the error in their theology and can see the danger their loved ones are in, in which case every parent that has genuine love for their offspring would also come against it.
With respect
Dear Dale, You are mistaken in two different things:
1) You seem to indicate that the members give to the leaders, but this is far from true. The leaders live under very humble means, they eat very simple food, and live in very simple houses, and gladly share anything to whoever is in need. Any money given is shared with whoever has a need, so really all giving is used to support the entire church, wherever there is a need.
2) You also seem to suggest that the people teaching Catherine are instructing her and everyone else that cutting ties with family is a “good thing” Nothing is a good thing if it compromises one’s relationship with God, so family is no different from anything or anyone else. As I have stated before, many people in the church are praying for Catherine’s parents to be reconciled to her.
Love in Christ,
Moses
Mark 14:4-6 (NIV) Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly. “Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
It is a routine theme for this group to compare itself to Jesus and justify in God’s voice.
“…most of you…do not seem to want to recognize their authenticity.”
“Jesus made a generalization during His time, and the situation is a lot worse today. Just as Jesus condemned the false leaders of His time, He will do that once again at the time of His judgment.”
“When the disciples were called by Jesus, they left immediately, leaving behind their boats, nets, and everything. Matthew left his tax-collector’s job and followed Christ.”
“When the woman with the alabaster jar of perfume poured it all upon Jesus, the disciples thought that it was a waste, but Jesus said, ‘She has done a beautiful thing to me’”
“If you are resisting the Holy Spirit…to take a bitter stance like this against the people of God, it is a grievious offence against God, and I plead with you to become right with God.”
Mr. David, do you believe these young men, a member of the group, or the group as a whole, represent the Second Coming? That this is the Messiah?
This is a serious real question meant respectfully. Thank you for being willing to speak here.
Dear ATHB, The church is the bride of Christ, she is one for whom Christ gave His life LIC, Moses.
Matthew 25:40-46 (NIV) “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I don’t know what that means. The question is what your belief is.
It has been said to directly to me,that they believe they are God’s true church and also that they are a perfect people. This is from a member of the CoW directly. It has been reported to me, directly, by a CoW member that God is building His perfect church amongst them, just as in the days of Noah.
Moses, I pray for you to courageously look at the truth. I also have a question and I ask with earnestness and respect. Do all of your family members support the CoW? Your wife? Does she? I’m just curious.
Dear TruthBeTold,
Matthew 19:28-30 (NIV) Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
Joshua 24:14,15 (NIV) “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
LIC,
Moses
Moses said: “You also seem to suggest that the people teaching Catherine are instructing her and everyone else that cutting ties with family is a “good thing”.
Yes we do and yes they are. I have heard from a member myself that if they “miss their family” the family is an idol to them and they must repent and stop those feelings. Also Sean Morris proclaimed in his book The Doctrine of Judgement, “You must be divided from your family for your own salvation, because your family is united in the worldwide divide against God.” This is why we cannot communicate with our children and loved ones there and why they will not communicate with us. Heartbreaking!
I’ve read all the back and forth. Here is what I think we need to realize–Moses no longer can hold a “normal” conversation with give and take between people. I think it is beyond tragic that he is willing to compromise everything he knows to be Truth just to maintain contact with his daughter.
Moses, I want you to know that I pray for you. I pray for your daughter but, most of all, I pray for your grandchild-to-be. I pray that Sean, in all of his arrogant pride, will allow your daughter to have prenatal care and that, should the infant show any signs of distress, he will allow medical care. He is not God nor is he a prophet. May God have mercy on this group.
Dear Concerned Person an ByHisGrace, As far as I know and see, Catherine and Preethi are free to call and speak to their family whenever they want, but if this will cause them to stumble in their relationship with God, they will strive not to do that. There is an earnest desire within the church to re-establish communication with the family members, so please be patient and hopeful. Also, see how you can strengthen them in their relationship with God, rather than pull them into the world, and be open to their exhortation to follow God’s ways in a manner that is quite extreme, Biblical, and Christ pleasing. You will be blessed if you humble yourself before God and be open to your own children’s Godly rebuke of you! Love in Christ, Moses.
Why/how would interaction with people outside of the group cause them to stumble in their relationship with God?
Is it a fear of undesirable behaviors (like a teenager that is easily influenced to poor choices by unsavory peers in a permissive environment)?
Or faith is tenuous and fragile, and belief in God is easily lost?
Or that commitment depends on 24 hours-per-day worship and focused activities (sermons and lectures, Bible study, group meetings, reflective introspection, support services to others)?
VAIN HOPE, AND PATIENT HOPE
Psalm 33:16-22 (NIV)
16 No king is saved by the size of his army;
no warrior escapes by his great strength.
17 A horse is a vain hope for deliverance;
despite all its great strength it cannot save.
18 But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him,
on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,
19 to deliver them from death
and keep them alive in famine.
20 We wait in hope for the Lord;
he is our help and our shield.
21 In him our hearts rejoice,
for we trust in his holy name.
22 May your unfailing love be with us, Lord,
even as we put our hope in you.
Moses said:
“Also, see how you can strengthen them in their relationship with God, rather than pull them into the world, and be open to their exhortation to follow God’s ways in a manner that is quite extreme, Biblical, and Christ pleasing. You will be blessed if you humble yourself before God and be open to your own children’s Godly rebuke of you!”
Are you saying that their way is the only way to please Christ?
To all,
Everything I see and read from Moses David (is this a pseudonym? I ask because it reminds me of the same name used by the founder of the Children of God cult) as well as what is declared as doctrine by Sean and others, strikes me as a resurgence of 19th century perfectionism.
To keep this short, please allow me to refer you to a history of the Church of God reformation movement that was started by D. S. Warner called “Who Healeth All Thy Diseases”. The book is available on Amazon, but has become quite pricey. I submitted a review of this book, which concisely describes this movement, which is very similar in nature to the church of Wells philosophy and teaching. Here is the link which is not meant to promote the book, but to summarize what Warner, et al, taught.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0810858401?pc_redir=1398612535&robot_redir=1
In reference to Proigal Knot’s post, I agree! There have been thousands of groups like this and still are who believe they are the remnant church. There is one near where we live. The only difference is they don’t scream at the town folk so there is a peaceable coexistence and no media attention. They also give to the community and have a good name. When I researched the remnant church to see what it looked like Biblically, the number one church that came up was Seventh Day Adventist! Here is an excerpt from an article on what they believe: “All Sunday-keeping churches are a part of the great “apostasy,” “Babylon” or the “daughters of Babylon”. So even as SDAs acknowledge that “God has His children in all churches,” they add, “but through the remnant church He proclaims a message that is to restore His true worship by calling His people out of the apostasy and preparing them for Christ’s return.” Sound familiar? As I continued my research I found hundreds of churches claiming to be the remnant church.
Also to Moses’ statement: “As far as I know and see, Catherine and Preethi are free to call and speak to their family whenever they want, but if this will cause them to stumble in their relationship with God, they will strive not to do that.” Yes the are free physically, however I don’t know really how much freedom that is as Catherine no longer has a phone, however, that being said, mentally COW has gotten them to the point where if they WANT to communicate with their family for any other reason than to preach that they are hellbound, that would cause them to stumble. Speaking to your family who God placed you with to nurture until adulthood is not a stumbling block. And if it is, you are a very weak “Christian”. There are many more temptation to look out for than giving your mom a call to ask how she is doing. Some parents haven’t had contact for over two years. Some don’t even know if their child is expecting. Some are not even told of the birth of a grandchild until they see it on the internet. This is not right nor Biblical.
I believe this group had a vision of a pure church in the beginning. I also agree with them that there are many lukewarm churches and unsaved pew sitters. Through the years, however, and now it has been years, they have become so so legalistic, creating their own doctrine to adhere to over Biblical scripture. I have heard this very fact from people who began in the beginning and left COW now looks like any of the other churches that began this way and are now deemed as cults.
“Catherine and Preethi are free to call and speak to their family…but if this will cause them to stumble in their relationship with God, they will strive not to do that.”
This is not a common standard central premise in Christianity or to protestant evangelical fundamentalism. How did these two women from vastly different backgrounds, education and life experiences, both arrive at this concern? What made either of them wonder if their families would cause them to stumble with God?
Moses said ~ “As far as I know and see, Catherine and Preethi are free to call and speak to their family whenever they want, but if this will cause them to stumble in their relationship with God,”
BINGO, there we have it folks. These people are “free” to see their loved ones UNLESS it causes them to stumble.
Concerned person said ~ “Speaking to your family who God placed you with to nurture until adulthood is not a stumbling block. And if it is, you are a very weak “Christian”. There are many more temptation to look out for than giving your mom a call to ask how she is doing.”
Amen! couldn’t have put it better myself.
Moses waken up…CoW congregation waken up!
The question remains ~
Since you can be a Christian anywhere else in the western world other than the Cow and NOT HAVE TO SEPARATE FROM LOVED ONES.
What are these people doing there ?
A few posts ago Moses admitted that there are genuine Christians outside of the CoW, none of whom have had to cut all ties with family “in case they stumble”
What is the point of the CoW then ?
If we can be genuine Christians and still enjoy our loved ones company, why go to Wells and join those only to be told you must end your relationship with family ??
Can you answer that Mr Moses David ??
With respect
FOR THOSE WHO WERE CONCERNED ABOUT PREETHI:
Following is today’s note from Preethi Morris. May Jesus’ Great Name be praised, He is faithful, never failing, always perfect in all His ways, merciful, compassionate, Healer, the Plumbline for daily living, Author and Perfector of faith, righteous, Lord, wise, able to do anything, Father, giver of every good gift, the One who silences enemies, victorious over death, the Advocate, Intercessor, Creator of life, Friend, righteous Judge, the immutable God of this universe. O’ how I love Jesus!
NOTE FROM PREETHI: “Our baby was miscarried last night. May the name of the LORD be praised. I feel securely in the Father’s hand. If only I may see His glory it is worth it all. Oh that He might bring a peaceful harvest of righteousness! Let us fall into the hands of the LORD for His mercies are great. As surely as He is breaking my heart He is binding it together in holy comfort and mercy. Sean has been a tremendous strength and consolation and his steadfastness and joy perseveres.”
Love in Christ,
Moses.
I am so sorry, Moses 😦
Sent from my iPhone
>
My heartfelt sympathy and prayers for you, Preethi and Sean.
So incredibly sorry for your loss, Moses.
I am so sorry Moses. I am praying she remains healthy. I hope they are giving her follow up medical treatment.
I don’t know what to say, Moses.
But, we’ll trust this was God’s decision to cancel Preethi’s pregnancy and not the fault of any imperfect human being.
My condolences, in any case. God be with you.
So sorry Moses. Praying for Preethi.
Likewise…commiserations here too.
I hope we can still dialogue Moses, there is still much benefit to be had in our discussion.
With respect
It’s beyond my ken that this is thrown into the conversation. Stunning. But an effective strategic strike. They reveal again they that they have no boundaries and nothing is sacred or off-limits for them.
Thank you, Steve, Danny, ByHisGrace68, Dale, ConcernedPerson and ATHB. Preethi and Sean are doing well by the grace of God, much crying and praying together (for the salvation of souls, even in the midst of their suffering), the Lord is comforting them, to accept everything as God’s perfect, and good plan. Preethi went through a similar loss 12 years ago when Mercy and I lost our baby conceived after a 12-year gap after Preethi’s birth through miscarriage, and God strengthened us through that sorrow by giving us peace in spite of the loss. God is sufficient to meet all our needs according to the riches of His grace in Christ Jesus.
Jesus wept when He saw Mary and the Jews who came with her weeping because of Lazarus’ death. He empathizes with the sorrow of His children, and strengthens them because of His great love for them. In the spiritual realm, God loves His children so much that He not only spares them from spiritual death, but He redeems them to Himself as His special people, and His imputed righteousness does not simply cover them in some superficial, external way, but He imputes righteousness through the working of His Holy Spirit and His teaching through the Word of God, sanctifying every one of His children by His mercy, through His promises and warnings. This leads to an internal heart change which is authentic in purpose and will. Among His promises include His perfect protection and provision, and among His warnings include the consequences of not abiding in Christ, unbelief and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Life through God’s Spirit is a life of humble submission to His call to fulfill His will in this life. Eternal life is promised to everyone who fulfills His will by believing in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ by faith (The Word of God is equated with Jesus Christ, and therefore believing in Jesus Christ includes belief and faith in every word of Scripture), submitting to His Holy Spirit, and depending upon His Holy Spirit equipping to complete every good work appointed, for the praise of His Name. Boasting is not possible because it is only by God’s plan, and His equipping that one can do anything of eternal significance. Love in Christ, Moses
2 Peter 1:1-11 (NASB)
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Thanks for the update Moses,
Would you be able to engage with this question now ?
Since you can be a Christian anywhere else in the western world other than the CoW and NOT HAVE TO SEPARATE FROM LOVED ONES.
What are these people doing there ?
A few posts ago Moses admitted that there are genuine Christians outside of the CoW, none of whom have had to cut all ties with family “in case they stumble”
What is the point of the CoW then ?
If we can be genuine Christians and still enjoy our loved ones company, why go to Wells and join those only to be told you must end your relationship with family ?
Many thanks
Dear Dale, Separation from family members is never the intended purpose, but to put away anything that comes in the way of having a proper relationship with God. The real problem is that the some of the families of the church members do not want the church members to discuss anything about God with them, and God is of foremost importance to the church members, so the families do not want to interact with them in that mode. The relationships could thrive if these families show interest in matters of spiritual significance that could promote a relationship, with God at the center of it. I pray that God will remove this barrier of separation for the benefit of both sides. Love in Christ, Moses.
Moses said ~ “Separation from family members is never the intended purpose, but to put away anything that comes in the way of having a proper relationship with God.”
There is something other than a “proper relationship” ?
Surely you either have a relationship with Him or you don’t ?
Or are you suggesting that those many people who have a difficult relationship with their loved ones because of their faith in Jesus Christ and do not seperate from them, are not in a proper relationship with Him ?
Moses ~ “The real problem is that the some of the families of the church members do not want the church members to discuss anything about God with them, and God is of foremost importance to the church members, so the families do not want to interact with them in that mode.”
You see, I think it safe to assert that every single Christian has someone in their family who does not want to hear about Jesus Christ, therefore by the CoW logic, every single Christian should seperate from loved ones. However, that is neither what we see in Church history nor in the Word of God.
Yes, we should seek to witness to them gently as with all people, but to expect to speak to unconverted loved ones every single time we see them and them to listen is neither wise nor Biblical ~
1Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Moses ~ “The relationships could thrive if these families show interest in matters of spiritual significance that could promote a relationship, with God at the center of it”
Well as we have just seen that is down to the power of God to change hearts of the unconverted. If the CoW had strong faith they would not need to cut off relationships with loved ones, they could be like Christ to them and treat them with love, as commanded in Scripture.
Thanks for the dialogue Moses, please consider these things in light of Scripture, because what CoW is teaching, (and you are an expression of that) is un-Biblical.
With respect as always.
Dear Dale, The church members are pouring out their hearts through prayer to Almight God for the salvation of their family members, either from their unregenerate state, or from a backslidden state, so yes, God is able to do miracles, and bring the lost back into a saving relationship with Him, and establish Christ’s peace, rather than carnal peace. May the Lord give us all discernment by His Spirit. Love in Christ, Moses.